I don't believe that a low birth rate says anything about when people grow up. If it did, teenage mothers would be the most responsible people in society.

You know, a teenage mother raised a man who was just elected to the most powerful position on Earth.

Anecdotal, yes. But your comment relies on a stereotype. How do we know that teenage mothers do not quickly start maturing from the point they become teenage mothers, relative to their peers? They almost have no choice.

(I say that knowing of some concrete counter-examples to what I just argued. But that's just anecdotes, too.)

Unfortunately, Obama is an exceptional case, and the research does not back you up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy#Impact_on_the...

Furthermore, correlation does not imply causation. There are many factors at play, including the correlation that many teenage mothers are also single mothers.

Actually, her mother was the one who raised him. Barack's mother ditched him with her parents so that she could live with her husband and daughter in Indonesia.

Not until he was in fifth grade.

I mention it as example of adults who have priorities traditionally associated with younger people - the low birth rate in places like Germany or Italy partly comes from adults preferring a certain lifestyle (a better car, exotic vacations, living in fashionable=expensive neighborhoods etc)

(I'm not judging this, btw, it's a valid choice.)

The reason for the low birth rates in eg. Italy is probably not primarily because people want cars and vacations, but rather that society is structured such that if a woman gets a child, she have to give up her career and become a housewife. Therefore many women defer having kids or choose not to have kids.

In Scandinavia birth rates are relatively higher - definitely not because Scandinavians don't like cars or vacations, but rather because the society makes it easier to have children and a job at the same time (e.g. kindergartens available and so on).

Very true, same in France where the family benefits are amazing.

I don't think it's fair to assume specific phases of life whatsoever: people don't automatically grow up. Some people seem to skip the adolescence phase and go right to adulthood, for better or for worse.

However, it IS fair to say that society reacts to people of certain ages as if the sheer fact of getting older meant instant change in mood and personality. And that's harmful.

maturity has little to do with age and everything to do with responsibility. I remember of hearing about a couple who adopted an orphan from Russia. the kid made people uncomfortable because he acted like an adult. Why? he was the oldest kid at his orphanage and had been looking out for younger kids for years.

The saying my mother used when I was growing up was that "a boy becomes a man when a man is required."

I agree completely.

It goes a lot deeper than a few mismanaged lives. The disregard for personal responsibility and the subsequent politics that result will get much worse as generation x then y come of age.

Every generation thinks the next generation is lazy, shiftless, immoral and will destroy the world. It's been happening for a while. The worrying, not the destroying.

How so? We've already caused a greater mass extinction than the last ice age did, and it's accelerating. Red blooms are sprouting up in our oceans. Methane and CO2 levels in the atmosphere are increasing at an accelerating rate, too.

All the while, people are getting fatter and fatter, and less and less active. Our great grandparents had to struggle and suffer just to survive. Most of us have never dealt with true scarcity in our lives.

Each generation is getting lazier, more privilaged and more destructive.

Yeah, it's tough to filter out anything insightful from these kind of arguments. Pessimists and optimists have said the same things about the next generations over and over again. Skip the silly arguments with just anecdotal evidence and persuasive tones. Just state the suggestion you think would improve society.

What about people that choose to turn their "parental instinct" to have and nurture children towards helping their society as a whole instead? Is that also a sign of immaturity for lack of "progeny"?

I don't think people who choose not to have kids are immature, it's a legitimate choice. I just mention it as a measure of certain changes. Nothing necessarily bad or good about it.

Without downplaying anything done for society as a whole, I must say that it's unlikely you'll ever be as influential upon society as a whole as can be upon your own children. Also, children also have a way of exposing your weaknesses that is unique to their relationship with (and reflection of) you.

Granted, these are just vehicles to maturity, not a promise of success. Everyone fails in some measure, some horribly.

"exposing your weaknesses"

Yeah. They bring out the ASS in some parents.