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Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by reaperman on Thursday May 04, 2023 @11:45AM (#35817242)
We don't have a good definition of consciousness or sentience. It needs to be specifically defined for every conversation. Generally we think we know approximately what version of "consciousness"/"sentience"/"intelligence" the other parties in a conversation mean by the context of their thesis, but sometimes confusion leads to people talking past each other.
Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by uoaei on Thursday May 04, 2023 @11:51AM (#35817374)
Philosophers of mind do have definitions of consciousness and sentience, but for some reason people keep ignoring or rejecting them.

For the purposes of this discussion, "consciousness" per se is mostly irrelevant. Sentience is still important but has less to do with intelligence than with experience (though sentience is still very much involved in acts of reasoning).

There are different kinds of reasoning, and those are probably more relevant to the discussion at hand re intelligence: associative, deductive, inductive, abductive, etc.

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by lostmsu on Thursday May 04, 2023 @12:58PM (#35818567)
For consciousness it is fairly easy to build a reasonable metric like IQ is for human intelligence. Simply take any game (turn based if you don't care about speed, and real-time if you do), and measure instantaneous skill level in that game. Then you'd see that common effects that lower consciousness would lower the metric like sleepiness or drunkenness, so it would have a decent predicting power.

In fact almost any game is such a measure, so given a spread of games of varying complexity you can get an idea of relative levels of consciousness all the way down to rats if not lower.

For instance, it was shown that GPT can play chess. I also just tried it on a tactical Dota question (not actual control), and that worked too.

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by JohnFen on Thursday May 04, 2023 @01:18PM (#35818901)
> a reasonable metric like IQ is for human intelligence

IQ is not a reasonable metric for human intelligence.

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by lostmsu on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:01PM (#35819578)
Yes, there is a group of you guys who believe so for whatever reason.

The matter of fact is that it is a metric of human intelligence and of all known metrics of human intelligence it is one of the best. Considering you still gauge people on intelligence with something you came up internally that you consider reasonable, and that whatever is that that you use internally is almost certainly worse than IQ, I'd say you're full of shit and/or lack logic :)

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by JohnFen on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:05PM (#35819638)
That there are no better options than IQ doesn't mean that IQ is a reasonable measure.

It is a reasonable measure of intelligent-adjacent things, such as how good you are at taking tests. An IQ score does correlate pretty well with how well you'll do in college. But to say that it's measuring "intelligence" in any sort of strong way is misleading.

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by lostmsu on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:11PM (#35819730)
My parent comment already addresses your point. It is amazing you can't see that.

There are two questions:

Is it a measure? Undoubtedly.

Is it reasonable? Well, how'd you define reasonable? Would you say that if A is reasonable for something, and B is better than A for the same thing, then from "A is reasonable" follows "B is reasonable"? I would. So if you can claim a person to be a fool and another person to be smart based on some interaction and consider both statements to be reasonable, and if you concede that IQ would better (on average) predict that kind of stuff than you, therefore you should consider IQ a reasonable metric of intelligence. (But you don't, so I suspect you're not good at logical reasoning)

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by JohnFen on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:17PM (#35819825)
> (But you don't, so I suspect you're not good at logical reasoning)

Perhaps I'm not, but at least I'm good enough at it to be able to have a discussion without resorting to insulting the person I'm talking with.

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by lostmsu on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:22PM (#35819912)
Do you take any criticism with this attitude?

Everyone is stupid at times, question is if we are willing to learn from mistakes.

Like denying many years of research with good predictive qualities, which you could probably also see personally, should have made you suspect about your point of view.

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by reaperman on Thursday May 04, 2023 @02:52PM (#35820339)
The vast, vast majority of people you interact with will take a comment like that as an ad-hominem attack. At best, they'll forgive you for the logical fallacy. More often, they'll feel you have inappropriate conversation patterns and that further interaction with you is risky ... as in, you might be some type of dangerous-crazy, because a lot of "appropriate" vs. "inappropriate" social mores are tools (litmus tests) to determine how anti-social[0] someone is in general.

Generally, the "overly emotional" push-back from the other party after one violates social norms is a cue to accomplish two things:

1) Alert others nearby that this was in fact a violation of social norms, and prepare them to potentially side against the violator.

2) Check to see if the offending party is generally in control of their social behavior, and this was just a transient "slip-up", or if the offending party is stuck in their anti-social modes and unable to recover negative social interactions. This acts to provide a stronger signal both to the offended party as well as to others nearby.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by JohnFen on Thursday May 04, 2023 @06:00PM (#35822708)
I am very good at having my arguments criticized (and even altering my stance when the facts convince me), but what you did was not that. Once you're attacking the person rather than the argument, the discussion ceases to be an interesting or useful one.

For the record, this is a topic I'm pretty well-versed in, and I am aware of the research. I'm also aware (as you should be) that there's a great deal of debate about what IQ tests measure and don't measure.

Your argument (ignoring the personal attacks) is not unreasonable. Neither is mine. This is not a settled matter, and is one where reasonable people can and do disagree. Including the experts in the field.

Re:AI Is Just Someone Else's Intelligence by stevenhuang on Monday May 08, 2023 @12:08AM (#35857974)
IQ or some form of it is an example of a reasonable metric

G-factor as a concept exists but can only be approximated by standard tests or equivalent.

IQ tests are imperfect and flawed, but it's the closest approximation to G factor we have.