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Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @06:51PM (#35795238)
> But there will never be any solidarity between say US and African workers

Why not? If post-covid economics has a theme, it's that things are more interconnected and more fragile than we expected. That fragility is also opportunity.

I can imagine scenarios where overpaid tech workers in the US--rather than striking themselves--instead pay underpaid miners (in Africa, say) to strike, which cascades to hold up manufacturing, which cascades to harm their eventual target.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by pyuser583 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @07:20PM (#35795535)
American unions avoid Mexican unions like the plague.

Mexican unions are very corrupt, and even being near them would expose American unions to insane legal liability.

I see the same problem with regards to Africa. Corruption is … an issue.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by zx8080 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @07:32PM (#35795680)
Seems that the old one "Divide them to conquer separately" always works.
Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by anonylizard on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @08:38PM (#35796245)
Its because often unity is worse than division.

Unity allows easy spreading of disease and corruption, cancer cannot spread between different people. If a union in one country is corrupt, it won't automatically affect the unions in another country.

China was a united entity against the mongol invasion, didn't work out very well, because you take out the center, the rest collapses.

Europe was deeply divided, and just because your neighbouring castle surrendered, doesn't mean you will. Because you are the local noble who owns the land, rather than some bureaucrat employed by a distant emperor.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:47PM (#35796720)
> China was a united entity against the mongol invasion, didn't work out very well, because you take out the center, the rest collapses

I am sorry, is this like troll logic?

The entire history of war is large and powerfull empires bullying smaller ones.

This is so silly I am not even sure how you can argue this. Like did USA fight world war 2 as 50 seperate armies, one for every state?

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by anonylizard on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:10PM (#35797362)
I'm not sure what 'entire history of war' you are reading. Did you only read 19th century history or something? If large empires always had an advantage, then you would see endless snowballing, and only end up with mega-empire-blobs, and one-world-government.

That is not the case. You have period of imperial blobbing, and also period of intense fracturing. Europe fractured after Rome, because smaller polities were much easier to maintain, with fewer layers of bureaucracy to feed. The small Frank kingdom (that only owned half of France) was able to fend off the great Jihad from the Umayyads that had crushed the Visigothic Spain. Whereas if you took out Rome, or the Chang-An of China, the rest of the empire would be paralyzed and unable to act.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @08:04PM (#35795985)
I don't know what re-unionizing in the face of a corrupt union entails, but presumably if you can pay people's salary while they strike you're at least part of the way there?
Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by zdragnar on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:44PM (#35796692)
Even casting off the yoke of a union that no longer represents you is hard in the US:

https://freebeacon.com/policy/labor-leaders-say-illinois-fir...

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighte...

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/...

I don't think I'd care to imagine fighting a corrupt union entails.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by iudqnolq on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @08:58PM (#35796370)
Mexico has both employer-controlled sham unions and real unions. While there is certainly tension between US and Mexican workers you overstate the situation.

US unions would like Mexico to have strong unions both out of sympathy and self-interest. The more protections Mexican workers have the less attractive it is to move jobs from the US to Mexico.

US unions successfully fought to include pro-union provisions in the USMCA (Trump's NAFTA "renegotiation"). They're using those provisions to help Mexican workers form real unions and defeat the sham employer unions. We don't yet have much experience with how these provisions will work out, but there have been limited early successes.

See for ex https://apnews.com/article/biden-labor-unions-united-states-...

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by pyuser583 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @10:07PM (#35796871)
I was thinking more of this: https://jacobin.com/2016/08/mexico-teacher-union-strikes-oax...

Describing the prosecution of the head of the teachers union in 2013:

> Mexican Attorney General Jesús Murillo Karam charged Gordillo with money laundering, saying she had used the union funds to pay for airplanes, pilot training, her plastic surgeries, and purchases of luxury items in the United States. Juan Díaz de la Torre, who was a loyal member of her union caucus, became head of the union.

> While Gordillo was very likely guilty of the embezzlement of which she was accused, such practices are common in the Mexican labor bureaucracy. The motive for jailing her was political: first she had betrayed the PRI, and then she had opposed Peña Nieto.

The part about “such practices are common in the labor bureaucracy” is telling.

Corruption is so common, that any prosecution can (accurately!) be labeled political is one of the best signs of a corrupt system.

This isn’t about an employer controlled union. The union is heavily autonomous.

But if Mexican leaders wanted to get rid of unions, all they would have to do is enforce the law.

Guiliani did something similar when mayor of NY. He announced sweeping investigations into union corruption, then negotiated very favorable contracts while prosecution was hanging over union leaders heads, then called off the investigations when he got the terms he wanted.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by iudqnolq on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @10:11PM (#35796897)
Maybe I was wrong to focus on employer controlled vs real unions. That's certainly a problem, but as you point out it's not the only problem.

Here's the broader point I was trying to make: Mexico has a problem with corrupt unions. But US unions are trying to help Mexicans solve that problem, not abandoning cooperation with anyone in the country.

I'm not sure if the US teachers union specifically is involved. They'd have less incentive to be because you can't replace a US teacher with a Mexican one.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by anonylizard on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @07:00PM (#35795334)
Why would tech workers pay miners to strike (Lets ignore the insane difficulty of organising that for now)?

Making hardware more expensive, directly and negatively harms software developers. Software devs benefit from cheaper hardware, in the same way car companies benefit from cheaper oil. Car workers don't get paid better because oil prices go up, they get laid off.

Also, most rare earth minerals are mined in China, China does not look kindly to foreign 'interference', such as labour organisation.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by jtr1 on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @07:20PM (#35795543)
This is an interesting idea. I honestly hadn’t considered that we could contribute to strike funds in these countries. Seems like a thing worth organizing
Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @08:11PM (#35796033)
I feel like a network of that sort would have applications all over the place.

Perhaps this is a petty example, but whenever I'm asked to input a tip in a place where tipping isn't appropriate (like a drive-through fast-food restaurant), I'd like to tip $0.05 as a hint that I've contributed $5 to their strike fund (which they could use an app to later verify).

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by UncleEntity on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:35PM (#35797580)
Why not just boycott the places with abusive labor practices instead of some convoluted scheme that only signals your virtuous nature to the exploited employees.

You know, like back in the day when people boycotted goods produced in Apartheid South Africa.

Today, unless there’s an app for that…

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by heavyset_go on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:03AM (#35797819)
Abusive labor practices are the norm in the food industry.
Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by __MatrixMan__ on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:24AM (#35798352)
It's not about virtue signaling, do you think that giving them strings-attached money is going to make them like me? It's kind of a jerk move.

It's about establishing communication directly with the workers so that you can circumvent potentially corrupt unions.

As for general purpose boycotts, I don't think they're as effective as they used to be. Modern supply chains are too convoluted.

It's easy to see somebody doing something that you don't like and engage with them directly about how you can help them stop. Mapping an evil to a change in your spending habits that prevents it... I'm sure there are cases where that's still possible, but I don't think it's the majority of them.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by zdragnar on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:33PM (#35796615)
I believe there are some Nigerian princes who would be willing to help you set up such a fund.
Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by int_19h on Friday May 05, 2023 @04:44PM (#35834935)
IWW is the organization that has been promoting the "One Big Union" mentality historically, and tries to work across borders.

It's not exactly a major player, though, and hasn't been for many decades now.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by AlecSchueler on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @07:03PM (#35795373)
I'd happily earn less knowing that the people working in literal mines to support my success felt less soul destroyed.
Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @07:24PM (#35795585)
Well yes, there are altruistic reasons too. I'd like to say the same for myself, but it's not like I've put in the effort to find out how to actually help such people--and presumably those ways exist.

But it even makes sense according to a colder, less human logic (which, regrettably, is often what matters). Like maybe I want to pressure the makers of a VR headset into letting me root it so that I can prevent it from streaming biometrics to the vendor. If I can delay the release of the latest headset versionin a way that causes the news about the delay to focus on how poorly certain workers are treated, I can later threaten to do it again if they don't give me what I want.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by ipaddr on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @07:51PM (#35795870)
How much less? 10% 50% 80%?
Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by AlecSchueler on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @01:45AM (#35798466)
That would depend on my absolute income and my overall situation at any given time.
Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @07:43PM (#35795802)
Well it wouldn't be any old mine, it would be chosen in a way that deferentially impacts the operations of the company that you want to harm. Yeah, it's a negative sum game, but that's how threats usually work. Even though it might hurt their hand, people sometime punch other people if they're convinced that it'll hurt their target more than it hurts them.

Income disparity would also be part of the calculation:

1) If there are V people with W average income each willing to pay X% of their their income to support Y other people while they strike and forgo their income of Z, then maybe you get more disruption for your buck by targeting part of the supply chain in a country where wages are lower.

2) If you're looking to make your target look scummy, targeting a more direct dependency might not be the right thing. You'd want to be funding a strike that should've happened anyway if only the people could afford it, not one that isn't justified.

As for the "China does not look kindly" thing... don't get caught? We're disrupting here, of course we're going to upset people. That's the point.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by anonylizard on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @08:23PM (#35796138)
Lets just say you need to understand a bit more about the difficulties about 'organizing people'

You are sounding like those businessmen who think building a facebook or programmer just requires hiring some contracted programmer for a few months.

And organizing people across national/linguistic borders is instantly 10x harder. Across long causality chains, 1000x harder. Its like trying to build an app that can run on hardware from the 90s to modern iOS to windows XP. The only company on the planet that can do that is Palantir, and they aren't very profitable.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @08:28PM (#35796174)
I'm not saying I can pull it off, I'm just saying that "solidarity between these groups will never happen" is hard to justify.

We've only been doing this whole widespread-global-communication thing for a few decades, who knows what'll happen in the next few.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @09:35PM (#35796626)
> Making hardware more expensive, directly and negatively harms software developers.

Global solidarity has more benefits than drawbacks. Plus strikes only last so long, then if successful the workers get better pay. But this is unlikely to lead to higher hardware costs - instead it will just be lower profits for the capital owners. The cost of raw materials is not determined by labor costs, but by global markets - owners just collect the difference between costs and prices for themselves.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by heavyset_go on Tuesday May 02, 2023 @11:59PM (#35797782)
> Why would tech workers pay miners to strike (Lets ignore the insane difficulty of organizing that for now)?

Why would anyone donate to help anyone else? I've contributed to strike and organized labor funds because it can help others improve and make meaningful changes in their lives.

> Making hardware more expensive, directly and negatively harms software developers.

I doubt many people are pro-miner brutality and exploitation because it might make electronics a bit cheaper.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by RugnirViking on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @05:08AM (#35799851)
> Software devs benefit from cheaper hardware

No they don't? For a start hardware is a miniscule cost at most software companies, but even asides from that, its not like programmers would be paid more if that cost was lower. They are paid exactly as little as the boss can get away with. If the company you or I work for literally doubled its profits we'd walk away with like a small bonus at most, maybe some small improvement in options if you're lucky enough to get those

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by htag on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @12:04AM (#35797829)
Why not?

Language barriers. Cultural differences. Exploitative history. Low trust. Geographic distances.

I think words like Never and Any are too strong, but I don't think we'll see high enough levels of solidarity to form an international labor union for at least 30 years. We seem closer to commercial nuclear fusion power plant.s.

Re:African Workers for ChatGPT, TikTok and Facebook Vote to ... by Aunche on Wednesday May 03, 2023 @04:26AM (#35799580)
>I can imagine scenarios where overpaid tech workers in the US--rather than striking themselves--instead pay underpaid miners (in Africa, say) to strike, which cascades to hold up manufacturing, which cascades to harm their eventual target.

I don't think you've considered the logistical difficulties of what you're describing. It's not like Panasonic has a list of all of the cobalt miners that were part of their supply chain. They themselves have no idea where their cobalt comes from, as they get it through several layers of middlemen. At the root of this supply chain are people like an man who feeds orphans, but forces them to collect peculiar-looking rocks, which he sells to the local warlord's nephew for $2 per hundred pounds. It's not exactly a place that's ripe for unionization. Even could pay somebody to strike, they really have no incentive to do so, as they'd rather earn even more money by not striking and you have no way to keep any individual person accountable.