Have you spent much time in Utah? Off the top of my head I can’t think of an organization that could be considered an even distant second to the LDS church in terms of influence over policies brought to and enacted by the elected officials in that state.

It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack that, thanks in part to FPTP elections, they've leveraged into a supermajority.

> It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack

It's a state that was literally created to be a place for Mormons because they were a persecuted religious minority ran out of every other state and it was a huge desert wasteland nobody else wanted. It's only due to huge influxes of immigration, especially from the South, that Utah is... checks notes only 85% white and 60% Mormon.

So it's like less of a 51% attack and more, business as usual and intended. If anything, the non-Mormons are going to soon be able to do a 51% attack and take Utah back, since Mormons are only 2% of the US population, and Californians are mass migrating to Utah now that people realized you can build in the desert with modern technology.

Persecuted because Mormons refused to respect American laws.

Yes if someone starts a cult that does illegal things they don't get to claim religious freedom or cry about persecution.

What laws would those be exactly?

polygamy?

Take a moment to think about history of US statehood. The Mormons, chased off Eastern settlements for their polygamy, settled most of the mountain West, declared governance, then watched big mining operations all around them get cut off from their territory and turned into full-fledged states, while they were not admitted to the union for decades.

It was a time of shared culture that is unrecognizable from where we stand today, and they absolutely didn't want to give statehood to polygamists...

Polygamy was federally outlawed precisely for the purpose of (dare I say) oppressing Mormons. It was not the law of the land until well after the migration to Deseret and the first attempt at statehood.

> Violence broke out in 1833 as the “Old Settlers” under the guise of “extra-legal” justice took the law into their own hands.

I'm seeing no mention of Mormons breaking laws, the only mentions of law breaking references other people breaking laws to persecute Mormons. The governor of Missouri's declares that they are to be expelled or exterminated (!!!), the mobs attacked them and killed them, no mention anywhere in your link of Mormons breaking any laws.

Note that I do not take the position that Mormons broke no laws, I'd just like to know what laws they broke, and particularly what federal laws they broke, since my reply is to the claim that they broke American laws and not of some specific state.

> When the Mormons attacked a duly authorized militia under the belief it was an anti-Mormon mob, Missouri’s governor, Lilburn Boggs, ordered the Saints expelled from the state, or “exterminated,

Theocracies can be elected. I fail to see how your definition of a theocracy automatically disqualifies Utah from being an "effective theocracy".

> Theocracies can be elected.

No, they can't, at least not by a general citizenship against a general pool of candidates. The Vatican's citizens don't get to elect the pope, and among those few who do vote, they can't choose a Bhuddist to be Pope.

> I fail to see how your definition of a theocracy automatically disqualifies Utah from being an "effective theocracy".

Well,I think you have to try really, really hard, not to see that.

>> Theocracies can be elected.

> No, they can't

Why not? The vast majority of people in Utah are Mormon, and people in high positions within the LDS Church often go into state and local politics and elected, precisely because they will enact policies that align with the moral tenets of the Mormon religion...

> people in high positions within the LDS Church often go into state and local politics and elect

Yep. That's called a democracy, or a Republic, depending on which word you prefer. It's literally nothing like a Theocracy, in practice or in theory.

You should probably study what an actual theocracy is: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/theocracy...

It's literally a theocracy /in practice/ because the religious minority is the majority in that region, in a state literally created for them, and they have run it since its foundation on the basis of the their religious beliefs, and continue to do so. You can't get more theocratic while being inside the US.

It's literally not a theocracy /in practice/. You don't get to redefine words to mean whatever you feel like. A theocracy is not a state that has some laws that correspond to one religion's moral code. It has never meant that, nor will it ever mean that.

Here are some major practical differences between a theocracy and a constitutional republic.

1. If citizens change their mind, within one election cycle they can replace every leader with atheists, or ones with different religions, and change the laws entirely. This is not possible in any theocracy, either in theory or in practice.

2. A constitution, both state and federal, limits what the state government can do, even when the leaders are all of one religion. Such limits do not exist in any theocracies, in theory or in practice, because, when you rule in the name of God, limits to your rule are sinful!

3. Utah has checks and balances via different branches of government. It has judicial procedures, for instance, where minorities can seek redresses. Our state and federal governments were explicitly designed to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. No such systems exist in any theocracies, in theory or in practice. For one, the majority doesn't rule in theocracies! When the majority rules, that makes it a democracy. I'm sure you've heard of that system of government?

> You can't get more theocratic while being inside the US.

You can't get past 0% theocratic in the US because theocracy is illegal in the U.S. You redefining the word to mean something else doesn't change this fact.

In your definition, theocracy is only a theocratic dictatorship, however there are other forms of theocracy, and I am pointing out one such case. I do not believe either Israel or Utah are literally theocratic, only because they have constitutions that allow the free practice of religion, but in /practice/ both are.

You are making up a new definition for a word, different from how it's commonly used.

I'm pointing out that the world operates pragmatically and things in practice matter, not only rigid dictionary definitions of terms. There is a difference between something meeting a literal definition and meeting that definition in practice. Does litigating the semantics matter for those who are affected by government policies created for religious reasons? No? Okay, well, then my point stands.

You are simply saying that religious people do not have any right to participate in the political process.

Should a religious person be allowed to follow said religion and be guided by it while at the same time being actively involved in policy making in a country that doesn’t have an office religion?

I’m genuinely asking because I personally don’t really have an answer. I have a personal intuition but that doesn’t count for much.

Just asking the question implies you do not believe religious people are human beings with the same rights and privileges as the irreligious.

Bummer.

I was hoping for a genuine, curiosity driven discussion and instead it will end here with a personal accusation about what you think I believe in. That’s just unfortunate.

I wish you a good day.

> because the religious minority is the majority in that region

Well that's quite the oxymoron.

If they're the majority in that region, any democratically elected government should reflect their interests. Barring infractions of Constitutional limits protecting individuals, like the Bill of Rights, of course.

I would argue the U.K. and Israel count as theocracies, too. It’s not a strictly defined term. But I agree that having a religious voting block a theocracy does not make.

I would argue that Israel is definitely a theocracy, and for similar reasons to why Utah is. It's a democratic state specifically created to house a persecuted religious minority that make up a majority of its polity and its leadership is ethnically and religiously aligned with that group and specifically elected and governs on the basis of their religious beliefs.

England (but not the UK) has caesaropapism rather than theocracy (they are similar in the absence of Church-State separation, but in theocracy the Church supervises the secular authority, where the reverse is true in caesaropapism.)

Theocracies can be republics (basically, any non-monarchic system is a republic), and can have elected representatives.

The Islamic Republic of Iran, for instance, meets both.

Now, the assertion that Utah is effectively a theocracy rests on the claim that the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints asserts informal power loosely analogous to that held formally by, say, the Guardian Council in Iran. I’m nit saying that that’s true. But that it is formally a republic with democratic election of representatives isn’t even slightly incompatible with it being an informal theocracy, you can even be a formal theocracy with those features.

So, following that chain of thought, the POTUS isn't elected either because the USA's voters only choose their electors, and those few electors who do vote can't just choose any US citizen to be president?

> fail to see how your definition of a theocracy automatically disqualifies Utah from being an "effective theocracy"

No religious head of state and no state religion. Non-theocracies can be highly religious.

I'm always vary of these arguments. Doesn't mean you are wrong, but remember there is a country call Democratic People's Republic of Korea and it has elections every 4-5 years. Last one was in 2019.