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Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by og_kalu on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:50PM (#35766926)
There is no meaningful difference between "fake" thinking and "real" thinking.

Especially when you arrive at this imaginary distinction with "It's fake because it has to be fake"

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by yladiz on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:57PM (#35766964)
But how would you define fake and real thinking? One done by a human and a machine?
Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by og_kalu on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:07PM (#35767031)
Shouldn't I be asking you that ? You're the one who thinks such a distinction exists no ?

If thinking/understanding/reasoning/whatever can be fake, it should be testable. It should be a conclusion that can be reached from results not baseless speculation. I mean, what kind of huge difference can't be tested for ?

If you tell me "this is fake gold" then there are numerous ways to distinguish fake gold from it's real counterpart, mostly by testing its physical properties.

If the results and properties from "fake" [insert] and "real" [insert] can't be distinguished then well you've just made up a distinction that doesn't meaningfully exist.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by bheadmaster on Sunday April 30, 2023 @08:31PM (#35767853)
> If thinking/understanding/reasoning/whatever can be fake, it should be testable

I agree with everything else you said, but this is a point I disagree with.

Just because something isn't testable, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Theoretically, the state of facts could be such that 1) human minds can think (as in, have consciousness and perform the process that is known to us as "human thinking") and 2) machines cannot think (as in, they don't have consciousness, but are literally just mechanisms that appear to provide same output as humans for a certain set of inputs).

I don't think it's true, in fact, I don't think consciousness itself is anything more than a convenient illusion, but I still must point out that "what is real must be measurable" is not a valid argument.

A more precise formulation might be "if thinking can be fake, the only way we can prove it is if it's testable - otherwise it doesn't make sense to discuss it".

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by og_kalu on Sunday April 30, 2023 @09:02PM (#35768038)
Guess we'll just disagree.

If it's not distinguishable then there's no difference period. Of course that won't stop people from making up differences.

An argument stemming from "well humans could have this special sauce that machines can't have...just because", is not something to take seriously.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by tosh on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:21AM (#35773152)
If something is indistinguishable to something else it practically means the two things are substitable (?).

It does not mean they are (or work) the same way.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by yladiz on Monday May 01, 2023 @02:56PM (#35777418)
Yeah, so then it depends on what determines if the first is indistinguishable from the second. Is this a Blade Runner situation, or something different?
Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by bheadmaster on Monday May 01, 2023 @01:47PM (#35776487)
> If it's not distinguishable then there's no difference period.

That's true only if you believe that the world only exists inside humans' minds.

If you believe in objective reality, then things that are different but not distinguishable by humans can exist.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by machina_ex_deus on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:14PM (#35767065)
I've definitely seen countless humans faking thinking or just not thinking at all.
Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by yarg on Sunday April 30, 2023 @08:53PM (#35767978)
There's a problem: an adequate mockery of sapience will be externally indistinguishable from genuine intelligence; it's the inaccessible internal world of the thinking thing that is its distinguishing characteristic.

In other words, beyond a certain point it's impossible to tell.

At the same time, it's just as impossible for me to know that another human is sentient, even if we meet face to face.

(So it's pretty much a moot point.)

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by satvikpendem on Sunday April 30, 2023 @11:03PM (#35768668)
Seems like solipsism is reality.
Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by d0mine on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:01AM (#35769839)
Here's the difference between fake and real: ask GPT-4: «how many "e" in the word "minimal"?»