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Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by yladiz on Sunday April 30, 2023 @05:12PM (#35766675)
You’re implying it’s thinking about the questions, and it’s not. This is the point: there’s no way GPT has theory of mind because it doesn’t think. It can mimic well but it’s not thinking.
Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by CamperBob2 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:43PM (#35767239)
Mimicry is enough to account for the output, but it doesn't explain how the model is so good at understanding even vague or poorly-considered prompts.

"Autocompletion" isn't an adequate explanation when neither the prompt nor the output has ever existed before. Something else is going on... something that obviously has a lot in common with how our own minds work.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by fl7305 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @07:39PM (#35767566)
I agree. Another way to come to this conclusion is that the GPT-4 model is on the order of 1000B parameters, or on the order of a terabyte of data.

That's not a lot of different sentences when you consider the combinatorical explosion.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by kelseyfrog on Sunday April 30, 2023 @06:48PM (#35767277)
Are you of the mind that there's some test, where if computers passed it, they would be functionally thinking, or more that it's ontologically impossible for computers to think?
Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by yladiz on Monday May 01, 2023 @07:35AM (#35771404)
I'm more in the former camp, and I would agree that if the computer passed this theoretical test, it could be considered thinking. We would also need to define what it means to think, since it's an ambiguous term; thinking could mean that you can explain your reasoning behind giving an answer (something ChatGPT can generally do), thinking could mean producing something novel based on your experiences/"training data" (something ChatGPT can't do), or it could mean something else, and I think if we define what it means to think, then we could probably create a test that can be used to consider something functionally thinking. Of course, this is getting into the realm of philosophy, and what does it mean to think, so there's not a simple answer here, but I'd generally say that thinking implies a degree of novel concept generation, which is why I wouldn't consider ChatGPT to think.

I could also understand an argument saying that it's impossible for a computer to think, but I don't think I'd agree with it.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by flangola7 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @07:21PM (#35767476)
What test would you give it to differentiate mimicking from thinking? I would like to experiment and test that out.

I have seen many claims that transformer models can't "think" but I have not seen any purposed tangible tests to verify or refute the claim.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by fl7305 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @07:37PM (#35767558)
I believe GPT-4 is able to perform some level of logical reasoning.

Simpler models look very good on the surface, but there are some examples where this starts to break own. Example:

"Is it legal for a man to marry his widow's sister?"

The catch here is the man is dead, which is the reason he can't marry. GPT-4 gets this right. Simpler models however can be prompted to perform step-by-step reasoning where they figure out that dead men can't marry, and that a "man's widow" means he's dead, but the model still can't be coaxed into figuring out that he can't marry in the scenario above.

I'm guessing GPT-4 still has similar hangups where it gets stuck and can't get out no matter the coaxing, although I don't have any examples handy. Anyone?

This doesn't mean GPT-4 is a stochastic parrot, just that there are still flaws in its reasoning abilities.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by UncleEntity on Monday May 01, 2023 @01:29AM (#35769395)
I had to look it up…

Turns out posthumous marriages are legal in some places so a French man can legally marry his widow’s sister assuming it doesn’t run afoul of other laws like (which I didn’t check the legality of) polygamy.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by CamperBob2 on Monday May 01, 2023 @02:41AM (#35769721)
ISTR this sort of thing is also kosher in the Mormon church.
Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by imiric on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:37AM (#35770362)
That question can't be answered reliably without knowing the training data used.

LLMs are great at being interfaces to the data they were trained on. Ask them anything beyond that, and it becomes clear they're not capable of thinking like humans do, i.e. produce novel ideas.

It's kind of absurd we're having this discussion, TBH. The only reason it's difficult to distinguish mimicry from thinking is because of the sheer volume of data we're talking about here, and some clever algorithms that find correlations in it, and can synthesize a human-like response.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by flangola7 on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:11PM (#35778469)
It doesn't know anything post September 2021, that's plenty of data that can be used to test its reasoning abilities and yet it still succeeds. It doesn't know specific facts about world events, but it can clearly reason about them if you give it a brief blurb about what it has missed out on - just like a human could after waking from long coma.

>the sheer volume of data we're talking about here, and some clever algorithms that find correlations in it, and can synthesize a human-like response.

If you swap the volume of data from "terabytes of UTF-8" to "decades of continuous input from the 5 senses," this doesn't sound very different than what you or I do already. The fact that it's difficult to differentiate mimicking from true thinking strongly suggests that there really isn't a difference, or at minimum not one that has any real world practical significance. If there is a scenario where the difference does have practical significance, what scenario is that? Because I sure can't think of one.

Re:GPT-4 performs better at Theory of Mind tests than actual... by circuit10 on Sunday April 30, 2023 @07:29PM (#35767514)
The easiest way to perfectly mimic thinking is to… just think.

If this so-called “fake” thinking is indistinguishable from “real” thinking, is there really a difference?