But if you're comparing the break even costs you should really be comparing a cheap used version of the car instead of a high end version as you're comparing it to a ludicrously cheap counterexample.

His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars. I don't understand how anyone can afford the millions of dollars gas cars cost.

Or maybe $4k cars that aren't absolutely falling apart and Veyrons aren't the most useful yardsticks of car pricing. I definitely understand the $4k used unicorn, I drove one for years. But IME the vast majority of $4k cars are priced that low for a reason.

I can find a used Bolt for ~$20k pretty easy. Most decent used gas cars are probably going to be around $10-14k. Let's say $10k price difference. At $3.50/gal, 25mpg, 12,000mi/yr, that's $1,680 in gas. At 4mi/kWh, 11¢/kWh, same mileage that's $330. $1,350/yr cheaper, so from energy cost differences that's a seven and a half year break even on 10k difference. If your ICE was $14k, that's only four and a half years.

And that Bolt probably just got a brand new battery from the recall, meaning it'll probably last at least a decade (probably more) without any major maintenance issues. Meanwhile that $10k ICE probably needs a new timing belt soon, probably has some aging motor mounts, and maybe it isn't always shifting into third gear very well.

I'm definitely not telling you to throw away your $4k unicorn. It's good you're getting a lot of life in it. I'm just suggesting that acting like EVs cost $80k and ICE cars cost $4k is stretching those markets to the point where it's pretty unrealistic to most buyers.

Also, that point about batteries spontaneously igniting, I've seen neighbors houses burn down from ICE cars spontaneously igniting. I see gas cars burning on the highways pretty regularly. I've had cars have recalls telling me to park outside. Gas cars catch on fire all the damn time.

> His $80k Tesla was $2M cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Clearly Tesla's are way cheaper than gas cars.

Silly comparisons are fun I suppose, but for someone who is poor ultimately the only comparison that matters is how much will it cost this year.

The cheapest non-salvage Tesla I see on craigslist right now is 30K. I also see tons of 2K-4K Honda/Toyota/Mazda cars that will give someone plenty of low-cost miles for years to come. It is not realistic to think a poor person will buy a 30K car on the hope that in a few decades the operating costs will break even and eventually save them money.

> At 4mi/kWh, 11¢/kWh

Here with PG&E they charge 33c/kWh after midnight, or 56c/kWh during peak hours.

Even if electricity was free, it would take 10s (if not 100s) of thousands of miles to make up for the initial price difference. But the future isn't written yet. It's entirely possible that gasoline will be $10/gallon next year and electricity may be free. In which case, it will only take 175,000 miles to break even.

Also, I think we're conflating two stories here. The first is about the SPECIFIC example of me and my brother. He bought an expensive car, I bought an inexpensive car. It's going to be at least another 300k miles before my gas expenses meet the price difference. At that point he can certainly start teasing me about how expensive my car is to operate. But I will still be able to call him a reactionary imperialist whose only interest is cheating the proletariat out of their right to travel in the HOV lane unimpeded by bourgeois singletons.

The second story is the general case, where someone who needs a car wants to compare the total cost of ownership of a Tesla vs. some other random non-EV. Let's also make the other random non-EV reasonably nice because if you're bougie enough to consider a Tesla, you would NEVER be seen in a Hyundai Accent. Bing tells me the MSRP on a 2023 Camry is $27k which is DANG CLOSE to a current Tesla after you throw in government credit. But the Camry can go 500 miles on a tank of gas and if you get the long range Tesla, the price starts going up. So there is a bit of a question here about how you might use your car (I mostly only drive city-to-city and use a bus in town, like any civilized person would.) But, I think the point here is the break-even point is MUCH lower than in my case.

There's also a third story I think is a little outlandish because we're comparing frightfully expensive cars with Teslas. This is where we compare the 2022 Rolls Boat Tail at $28M to the standard Model 3 after all the price cuts Elon's been talking about lately. If you can afford a Rolls Boat Tail, you don't care about how much gas (or electrons) cost. You would probably NEVER be seen in a standard Model 3. I think you would have to get a plaid and then gold plate every surface. Or maybe palladium plate every surface because someone told you gold was passé.

It's silly to compare the cost of operation of two cars that aren't in competition to be purchased by the same person. You should compare the kinds of cars you'd be likely to buy against each other, or the kinds of cars your brother is likely to buy against each other.

A model 3/Y purchase price is pretty much at the average new car price, so a person looking for a new sedan or mid sized SUV would look a step further and look at things like total cost of operation.

Again. My original comment was in response to someone who asserted it was ALWAYS less expensive to operate an EV than to operate an ICE vehicle. Which is all manner of wrong.

I gave a specific example involving an expensive EV my brother bought and a remarkably inexpensive used ICE vehicle I purchased. I did not say that every comparison of EVs with ICEs would exhibit the same relative costs. I was talking about a SPECIFIC example.

We're I logician I might refer to this as an existential: there exists one. I am not arguing it is a universal.

But if someone says "all EVs are less expensive to operate than all ICEs," then to disprove that statement you only have to find a single counter-example, which I did.

Finding a single counter-example to the universal does not imply the obverse of the universal. In other words, saying "hey, I bought a cheap used ICE vehicle and it is considerably less expensive to operate than my brother's EV" does not mean I am arguing "All ICE vehicles are cheaper to operate than all EVs."

I am happy that you like the model 3/Y and wish you many years of happy driving. <snark>At least until you have to sell your children to afford the replacement battery.</snark>

> For city driving, I charge at home for around 1/3 the cost per mile compared to filling a comparable ICE vehicle with a poisonous combustible liquid.

That's all the person you originally replied to says about cost. You emphasize ALWAYS and use the keyword operate, but you've self inserted the extreme always condition and ignore what operate means.

You're adding the word "always" and completely ignoring the "comparable" aspect. These two words radically change the meaning of the comment you're arguing against in your mind and what's actually written in the comment.

> all EVs are less expensive to operate than all ICE

The only comment in this thread with that language is your comment right here.

> At least until you have to sell your children to afford the replacement battery.

I guess ICE cars never have substantial drivetrain failures which ultimately result in the cost of repairs exceeding the value of the vehicle? The transmission in my 2000 Accord was starting to experience issues, how much would that have cost to replace? And then on top of that, it probably needed an EGR cleanout again along with a new water pump and timing belt. I don't know how many more years the catalytic converter would have lasted, those are cheap though right?

I guess all of those things are pretty cheap, what maybe $50 each right? Wait, rebuilt transmissions are like $2k before labor? Having someone replace the timing belt and water pump is almost $1k these days, and that's something I'm just supposed to do every 60,000mi or so?

Meanwhile the battery is practically the only real drivetrain wear item on an EV. No catalytic converter to rust or walk away, no EGR system getting clogged up, no timing belts to fail and destroy the valves, no valves getting gunked up, no piston rings to foul, any seals are under way less stress and far less prone to leak, coolant systems are practically never stressed and under way less pressure and aren't a tiny seal away from making forbidden milkshakes, etc.

If your argument about EV battery life is based around the battery only having a 10 year 100,000mi warranty, I'd hate to break it to you about ICE car warranties these days. Clearly just about every ICE car is just going to fall to pieces at about 60,000mi. Or maybe many vehicles vastly outlive their stated warranty times.

> Here with PG&E they charge 33c/kWh after midnight, or 56c/kWh during peak hours.

Sounds like a good reason to avoid areas served by PG&E.

Sure. But he didn't buy a Bugatti Veyron and I didn't buy a Tesla. He bought an $80k Tesla and I bought a $4k used Fiat.

Again.

If your objective is to drive around cheaply, neither a Bugatti Veyron nor a Tesla are your best bets.