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Re:AI Is Coming for Voice Actors. Artists Everywhere Should ... by brookst on Thursday April 06, 2023 @07:56AM (#35467151)
Neither of these statements is true.

Physical property is zero sum. If you take something from me, I no longer have it. IP has zero marginal cost of duplication; if you take something from me, we both have it.

Physical property ownership is nearly universal, and is probably related to the way humans are more loss averse than gain seeking (losing $100 is more bad than gaining $100 is good).

There have been some societies with leased, or even no concept of physical property ownership, but those are exceptionally rare and can hardly be held up as equally aligned with human nature.

IP ownership, however, is recent and very artificial. The idea that any random person is prohibited from singing a song they heard or copying a painting is new to the past couple of hundred years, to the best of my knowledge.

It’s fine to be opposed to both physical property and IP, but let’s not equate the two as far as the history of the concepts goes. They’re very different.

Re:AI Is Coming for Voice Actors. Artists Everywhere Should ... by matwood on Thursday April 06, 2023 @08:05AM (#35467210)
For a long time whoever was stronger 'owned' the physical property. I assume you don't want to go back to that time, so now we have laws defining ownership. It's been decided to have these same laws apply to IP. You may disagree with that last statement, but I think it's incorrect to use recency or artificial as the argument when current laws are also the only thing letting many people own their physical property today.
Re:AI Is Coming for Voice Actors. Artists Everywhere Should ... by CSMastermind on Thursday April 06, 2023 @09:25AM (#35468015)
> For a long time whoever was stronger 'owned' the physical property.

This is both still the case today and probably was never the case in the way that I think a lot of people would read that sentence.

Property rights have always been maintained, to some extent, through force. This is the case today. The state maintains a monopoly on violence and uses it to enforce property rights.

It's also true that humans, generally, hold some innate concept of fairness which leads to us generally respecting each others property. The use of violence was only ever to handle the edge cases as a last resort.

And "stronger" doesn't imply that the single physically strongest individual maintained ownership. Humans are social creatures who have always banded together and lended resources and support to individuals they trusted to be the most fair when making decisions. This only extremely rarely was the single physically strongest individual.

Re:AI Is Coming for Voice Actors. Artists Everywhere Should ... by matwood on Thursday April 06, 2023 @04:08PM (#35473667)
Great points. Thank you for expanding on that concept.
Re:AI Is Coming for Voice Actors. Artists Everywhere Should ... by friendzis on Friday April 07, 2023 @05:34AM (#35479840)
> It's also true that humans, generally, hold some innate concept of fairness which leads to us generally respecting each others property. The use of violence was only ever to handle the edge cases as a last resort.

You have the argument backwards. Even in the old times one would not go and occupy house in a village or milk others' cows not because of some innate concept of fairness, but rather because of genuine fear of backlash resulting in violence of other villagers banding together.

You can see the same thing in animal kingdom. Territorial animals do not cross into rival territories not because of innate concept of fairness (new leaders happily massacre offspring of previous leader), but rather threat of violence and resulting negative expected value of hunting in rival grounds.

Property rights exist primarily because of force. To some extent states exist in order to apply force on ownership rights

Re:AI Is Coming for Voice Actors. Artists Everywhere Should ... by notahacker on Thursday April 06, 2023 @09:20AM (#35467976)
Control of streams of income from selling reproductions of something is clearly also zero-sum, and much physical property is non-rival. If I don't pay a toll on your bridge, you still have a bridge (of course you may not build the bridge if you are unable to extract tolls from it, but the same arguments justified intellectual property laws). If I stay in your apartment when you're on holiday, you still have uninterrupted enjoyment of your apartment on your return: the only thing you have lost is a possible income stream from selling it to others. A freeholder isn't even allowed to enter apartments whose freehold he owns without permission of the leaseholder; and yet he has the property right to extract ground rent and maintenance fees from leaseholders.

Modern world physical property rights - centred around permanent or fixed term tradable exclusive rights of economic exploitation - bear more resemblance to intellectual property rights than the relatively universal notion that people shouldn't have the stuff they're using taken away from them, as do the practical and moral arguments about people deserving fruits of their labour and being more productive when given exclusivity over them.

Re:AI Is Coming for Voice Actors. Artists Everywhere Should ... by brookst on Thursday April 06, 2023 @09:41AM (#35468189)
You’ve conflated ownership and rent. Once we’re into second- and third-derivatives (like A paying B for the exclusive right to rent property owned by C), it’s all more complex and blurs the line between real property and IP.

But at its heart, the concept of physical property ownership is fundamentally different from IP. The fact that there are hybrids doesn’t change that.

Re:AI Is Coming for Voice Actors. Artists Everywhere Should ... by notahacker on Thursday April 06, 2023 @10:10AM (#35468519)
Most of "ownership" is the right to extract rent or deny others from using something. Arguments that the original owner now has the ability to use the thing and always did have no validity as a defence whatsoever against any sort of property crime, because modern ownership is defined by rules artificially enforcing exclusivity claims, not whether the original owner has the use of a thing.

If property actually pertained to owners not being prevented from using things, property law would be a very short set of guidelines entirely approved by the author of Property is Theft.

The fact that modern physical property law is - like IP - almost entirely about creating artificial restrictions on other people's use of stuff and the right to charge for its use obviously changes the concept that actually it's fundamentally different.