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Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by LawTalkingGuy on Thursday March 30, 2023 @03:00AM (#35369082)
Portugal didn't decriminalize anything. They still pick you up against your will and detain you for years while not giving you drugs and forcing you to work. The only semblance of decriminalization is that if you cooperate and don't try to escape they don't give you a criminal record.

They use the criminal justice system and the underlying crime of public use and unsafe intoxication to force you into rehab, which is the very definition of criminalized.

Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by mylidlpony on Thursday March 30, 2023 @04:19AM (#35369616)
Do you have any links to back up those claims? Every single article about Portugal's drug situations I've seen seems to disagree with you.
Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by LawTalkingGuy on Thursday March 30, 2023 @12:26PM (#35375235)
As a part-time resident of two major drug cities I've been looking for that article. I just have to read between the lines and contrast it with the results we get from the same words.

It should be obvious when reading a story about Portugal that they couldn't get the junkie to stay in rehab voluntarily, so obviously they don't mean "no potential of a criminal charge at all".

Whereas in Vancouver they specifically changed the rules so you can buy and do drugs in front of the police, pass out and almost die - get revived and smoke more drugs, and have no charges, no special detainment, nothing.

Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by mrguyorama on Thursday March 30, 2023 @01:47PM (#35376534)
"I have no source or evidence so just keep taking my word at face value"
Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by LawTalkingGuy on Thursday March 30, 2023 @02:26PM (#35377017)
My source is my eyes. I drove through the local drug camp recently and saw a dealer dealing within a stone's throw from police in their car, and junkies passed out just steps from him. There's a ton of evidence, but you could search for it if you really wanted and you didn't.

What I haven't found is a single short and simple article that explains for ... people like you, that what Vancouver/Seattle/Portland/SF and Portugal mean by decriminalization is not the same.

Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by mylidlpony on Friday March 31, 2023 @04:30AM (#35384232)
Your eyes have no value in this conversation. If you can only back up your claims with "trust me bro", they are irrelevant.
Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by LawTalkingGuy on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:55PM (#35390671)
What issue do you have that makes you incapable of searching for references and yet still able to whine about that incapability online? And what are you actually looking for a reference for? That there are drug encampments? That some cities have literally made it legal to buy and sell Fentanyl?

You have been told something exists, that's 95% of the way there. Now go to a search engine and type 'vancouver drug decriminalization' and 'Portugal drug treatment' and read about the issue.

You're trying so very hard to use me to justify your ignorance and to be insulting in the process.

Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by mylidlpony on Saturday April 01, 2023 @02:07PM (#35402484)
I googled the phrase 'Portugal drug treatment' and found out what I was suspecting from the start - which is, everything I saw previously was correct and they indeed decriminalized all drugs up to certain weight and still jail dealers. This goes against the claims that you previously made that they did not have a decriminalization, and the next one about criminal record also doesn't make any sense in this context - what would the criminal record be, a gram of weed?
Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by LawTalkingGuy on Sunday April 02, 2023 @01:01AM (#35407345)
Okay, now that you did some work and have questions I can help.

> what would the criminal record be

Public intoxication, possession, etc.

> everything I saw previously was correct and they indeed decriminalized all drugs

They haven't decriminalized public usage. You can have your small amount of drugs if you do it in private and are discrete.

> This goes against the claims that you previously made that they did not have a decriminalization

It's a system of not giving you a criminal record by using the mere threat of the criminal justice system for force you to voluntarily enter rehab. So you have to do what they say but then they don't label you a criminal and they sort of pretend you went into treatment on your own.

In the words of the guy who invented and runs their system:

"There are a lot of myths around the Portuguese model that, for instance, we just liberalize you do whatever you want, nobody cares ... It's important to say that using drugs in Portugal is still prohibited under the law ... If somebody in Portugal starts injecting heroin in public [...] he would be arrested and conducted to the police station. The substances would be apprehended. If they have more than the amount that is calculated on the basis of personal use he undergoes criminal procedures as before. If he has less than that amount he would be intimated to present himself to the commission. It's not a court, it's not a formal institution, but he will be confronted to discuss his drug use with professionals. It's mandatory, with a little bit of muscle you have them in front of you. We can try to understand what is happening with this person. For each hundren people that is conducted through those commissions, ten of them are problematic users." -- João Goulão - National drug coordinator for Portugal - https://twitter.com/ShellenbergerMD/status/16412220666858455...

This next part is where you have to read between the lines a bit. They don't come right out and say that they can't arrest junkies for junking in public - you have to understand that they wouldn't pass a bylaw to make it happen if they didn't need to which means that in the rest of the cities they would not arrest and move them proactively.

Here's a typical article about Vancouver BC's decriminalization - https://archive.is/f2Q0k

"Police forces across British Columbia are finalizing training on new drug laws that will limit or entirely cease their interactions with people who use drugs as the province becomes the first in Canada to decriminalize simple possession."

"While many police departments have in recent years moved away from arresting and recommending charges for possession alone, officers will now also stop confiscating illegal drugs"

"at least one city is preparing to introduce a new bylaw that would re-engage police if people use in certain public spaces."

From which we learn that 1) they won't be able to arrest at all for drug possession, 2) they won't even be able to confiscate dangerous drugs, 3) they won't even arrest people for public use (unless cities pass a bylaw overriding the province.)

In Portugal they will arrest, and will confiscate, and will use legal powers (if you push them to it) to detain you. In Vancouver they can not arrest, can not confiscate, and will not engage the criminal justice system at all.

Portugal is saving lives by using the courts, Vancouver is getting worse with every loosening. Seattle and SF are roughly the same as Vancouver.

Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by Tiktaalik on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @01:22PM (#35442970)
Vancouver for years and years under a half way "decriminalization" did still confiscate drugs and all the while everything became worse.

Only now as of January 31, 2023 are police in Vancouver supposed to stop confiscating drugs. we're only 3 months into this new era.

Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by LawTalkingGuy on Tuesday April 04, 2023 @05:16PM (#35445944)
Only sometimes, like when someone ODed or tried to sell right in public. And of course that didn't do much if any good overall because Vancouver didn't do anything else that Portugal does - like limiting the almost endless supply of cheap fentanyl. Even when they seized drugs it was a mere matter of minutes and a few dollars to get more.

Vancouver/BC didn't have decent recovery programs, and not enough capacity even in the bad programs, and critically - no legal capacity to force someone into them even if they did. People can be detained for up to 72hrs and "dried out" but that merely lets some of the detox pass, it's not at all related to kicking the drug and recovering from addiction. Even when they want to be clean the city usually houses them in a drug hotel where peer pressure drags them back in.

Arrest and seizure are valid tactics, Portugal proves it, despite Vancouver failing to apply them properly as part of a holistic program.

Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by ligmastructure on Thursday March 30, 2023 @06:29AM (#35370549)
It's decriminalized. That's literally the word. It's still illegal to possess controlled substances, but not a crime right away.

There's a published list [1] of illegal substances and what quantities constitute as "personal use" (like 25g of weed or 5g of hash - translated in "individual doses"). More than that you can be trialed for drug dealing, which is a fair trade-off.

Yes it's still illegal to possess any of these substances, but what happens is that if you're below the "criminal" threshold, you get a doctor/shrink appointment and usually pay a small fine (around 25 euros). Nothing gets written to your criminal record. Repeated offenders might have more several penalties like community service.

Recently there's been a surge in homelessness and harder drug consumption, analog to the rest of Europe, due to a huge housing crisis, very stagnant salaries and overall poor quality of life here (in Portugal).

[1]: https://dre.pt/dre/legislacao-consolidada/decreto-lei/1993-5...

Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by LawTalkingGuy on Thursday March 30, 2023 @12:01PM (#35374827)
That's not how it's used in North America and thus it's not the impression our pundits are trying to give when they use it to reference you.

Here, decriminalized is uncontrolled. You can buy your fentanyl in front of a cop and do it in public. Cops can't arrest you for it. There is a maximum amount but it's huge! Pot is still limited though, and you can be arrested for having more than an ounce but you can't be arrested for carrying enough fentanyl to kill an entire building of people.

This has been done so that there's no way to force people into rehab, so they're a continual source of income for the taxpayer funded "charities" that provide for them.

Re:The Horrifying Epidemic of Teen-Age Fentanyl Deaths in a ... by lazyasciiart on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:24PM (#35391162)
This is not true. That's exactly how it is used in North America.