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Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by furyofantares on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:07PM (#35318259)
You're kinda right but it's also kinda right that after a decade+ crypto found like 1.5 useful applications and generative AI is finding some mind blowing product launch or demo something like once every 8 hours.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by everfree on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:41PM (#35318705)
It's not a race. One technology can show its value more quickly than another, and one technology can ultimately provide more value to society than another. That doesn't mean that the other technology is useless, just that it developed more slowly and/or ended up having a lesser overall impact.

I think it's worth putting into perspective though that machine learning kicked off in the 60s, whereas there wasn't any notable progress on the byzantine generals problem until 2009 (and even the concept of proof-of-work wasn't formalized until 1993). Distributed ledger technology is still relatively young compared to machine learning.

Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by furyofantares on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:50PM (#35318784)
I think the comparison is useful to folks trying to wrap their head around the hype; it's natural to ask "is this crypto all over again" and the answer is very clearly no.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by everfree on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:15PM (#35319058)
IMO since crypto is a newer technology than AI, I think it's more relevant to ask whether crypto is "AI all over again".

AI has followed the classic Gartner hype cycle [1]. There was the trigger in the 1960s-90s, the peak of inflated expectations in 2000-2010 with every other company bragging about "AI this" or "machine learning that" while having nothing of any use to show for it, then finally the "slope of enlightenment" from the 2010s-present where AI is actually becoming useful to people in their everyday lives.

Crypto may be on the way out - or - it may be following a similar curve on a shifted timeline. For example: Trigger in 2009, peak of inflated expectations 2017 (cryptokitties), trough of disillusionment 2017-2030, slope of enlightenment 2030-2040.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gartner_hype_cycle

Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by echelon on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:29PM (#35319222)
Modern AI is less than ten years old. Digital money is older than crypto.

PyTorch: Initial release September 2016; 6 years ago

Tensorflow: Initial release November 9, 2015; 7 years ago

> In 1983, a research paper titled "Blind Signatures for Untraceable Payments" by David Chaum introduced the idea of digital cash.

> The first artificial neural network was invented in 1958 by psychologist Frank Rosenblatt.

In the limit, the dates don't really matter. I'd wager both fields have had roughly the same human capital afforded to them - I'd be happy to be shown otherwise.

Neural networks really only had a scaling problem to overcome, and most people knew it. What's the technical problem with crypto?

Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by everfree on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:48PM (#35319422)
> What's the technical problem with crypto?

* The waste of Proof Of Work (in terms of both on-chain economics and off-chain externalities). Introduced in 2009, solved in 2023 with Ethereum's final Proof Of Stake update (earlier if you look at smaller cryptos or if you count Ethereum's half-finished PoS algo starting in 2020).

* The inability to scale transaction throughput. Became a problem with Bitcoin in 2015, partially solved by Ethereum in 2022 with Layer 2 chains, to be fully solved in 2024-2027 with data availability sampling and generalized zero knowledge roll-ups.

* The inability to reach quick finality. Bitcoin provided 30 to 60 minute probabilistic finality. Ethereum provided similar probabilistic finality with much more predictability. Ethereum's PoS update gave it 15-minute economic finality. Future updates promise 12-second on-chain economic finality. Zero knowledge rollups promise instant economic finality.

* Miner extractable value (MEV). Too deep a topic to get into here, but it's a problem that plagues existing public smart contracts and that has solutions (like proposer-builder separation) that are currently in concept phase (2-5 years until wide implementation).

* History and state expiry. Basically, the ability for a blockchain to prune very old data that is no longer needed to keep consensus. 3-5 years out imo. This will allow for blockchains that don't constantly grow in size the longer they run.

Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by menzoic on Sunday March 26, 2023 @05:06PM (#35319622)
> I'd wager both fields have had roughly the same human capital afforded to them Highly unlikely. AI received massive government funding. Digital cash not so much. There are thousands of labs studying AI, not so with digital cash. Also digital cash is just one use case, there wasn't efforts towards a generic blockchain in those days.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by bornfreddy on Sunday March 26, 2023 @05:20PM (#35319754)
> Neural networks really only had a scaling problem to overcome, and most people knew it.

This is incorrect. During 90s NNs were just one of the approaches to machine learning. It was not even clear how far ML as a field could go.

You can twist it any way you want, but AI/ML is older than cryptocurrencies.

Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by paulmd on Sunday March 26, 2023 @06:25PM (#35320294)
It's odd that you're willing to go back to 1983 for a single paper but ignoring all the AI work in the 70s/80s - marvin minsky and the perceptron are literally 1970s tech.

Applying your same "modern AI is less than 10 years old", modern cryptocurrency really dates no older than Bitcoin. That took off say maybe 2010-12 or so, while the AI research was really kicking off around 2012-2014.

They're roughly the same age on both scales, Bitcoin is probably a bit older than modern AI and AI fundamentals are probably a bit older than cryptocurrency fundamentals, it sounds like. But this is arguing about 2 years +/- for the modern stuff and 5y +/- for the 70s/80s stuff.

Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by furyofantares on Sunday March 26, 2023 @06:01PM (#35320089)
I mean, I'm not trying to be "fair" to AI vs Crypto or predict the long future or analyze the distant past; a lot of folks may have given crypto way more immediate attention than they ultimately feel had a good payoff for them, and wonder if if all this AI hype will also be nothing but hype for the next many years, or if they should in fact devote their immediate attention to it.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by LordDragonfang on Sunday March 26, 2023 @05:23PM (#35319781)
If you're comparing modern machine learning with what was going on in the 60s, the two are so different that you should be comparing crypto to financial exchange technologies in general if you want to make an honest comparison.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by hermitcrab on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:10PM (#35318298)
What were the 1.5 useful application - buying illegal stuff and money laundering?
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by phonescreen_man on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:37PM (#35318643)
Steem monsters was great for a time. I think it still exists on the hive network.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by cs02rm0 on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:33PM (#35318602)
Getting out of Russia.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by hermitcrab on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:17PM (#35319083)
Good for you. But it seems that cryto is a zero sum game. Every dollar one person makes, another person loses.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by rkho on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:25PM (#35319181)
I have some exciting news to share with you about our traditional financial markets.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by unvx-n-banned on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:27PM (#35319194)
Bitcoin is trading at 28k. When the dollar is endlessly printed, all you need to do is not sell your bitcoin and eventually you'll come out ahead. Because the dollar supply is infinite, it is not zero-sum.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by jboy55 on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:46PM (#35319402)
If bitcoin was the only crypto, maybe, but there is an infinite number of possible crypto coins.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by menzoic on Sunday March 26, 2023 @05:07PM (#35319628)
Why is that relevant? Anyone can create crap. That doesn't change the tech.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by unvx-n-banned on Sunday March 26, 2023 @07:38PM (#35320930)
Bitcoin is smarter than anything you've invented
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by sowbug on Sunday March 26, 2023 @06:04PM (#35320124)
An infinite number of Facebook clones, too.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by unvx-n-banned on Sunday March 26, 2023 @08:14PM (#35321219)
There's an infinite number of fiat currencies. There's a dozen different precious metals. What's your point?
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by jboy55 on Monday March 27, 2023 @02:25PM (#35330339)
The point is only valid when you are going to make a case for "crypto" on Bitcoin's finite supply.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by codedokode on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:58PM (#35319546)
This is an interesting observation. Governments officially support inflation, i.e. stealing your hard earned money (as stealing money seem to be better for economy) and you cannot do anything with it.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by this_user on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:14PM (#35318350)
There is also ransomware.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by rcxdude on Sunday March 26, 2023 @03:19PM (#35318420)
That basically falls under money laundering
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by hermitcrab on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:15PM (#35319057)
Enabling ransomware is 'useful'? To criminals perhaps.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by codedokode on Sunday March 26, 2023 @04:53PM (#35319467)
But in America some of that illegal stuff became legal now.
Re:Cryptocurrencies add nothing useful to society, says chip... by mrcaosr on Sunday March 26, 2023 @08:39PM (#35321432)
well, gpt told me that crypto usage would most likely keep increasing in the future XD

just ask it ;)