For instance, are there any good cops in Louisville? Any good state cops in Kentucky? Seems to me they would’ve done something, anything, about the Breonna Taylor case instead of waiting for the feds to come in.
There were even active coverups, Kentucky’s Attorney General went to great lengths to push the idea that the entire thing was perfectly legal!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_a...
Not really relevant, but the ridiculous (and secret) police response once they knew they were being targeted had bad consequences for others too. I have a house near where this multi-agency incident (links below) occurred and there was so much gunfire for such a long period that I knew it had to be cops doing the shooting.
https://www.kpcc.org/2014-01-15/la-district-attorney-torranc...
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd...
https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...
There was no justice in it. You're also taking for granted that the misjustice he claimed to have seen actually happened. Taking seriously the word of a man we know murdered innocent people.
Again, you need to stop confusing my analysis for support and sympathy for Dorner. He obviously exhibited some mental problems and very poor judgement, but stressful conditions can do that to otherwise good people:
https://futuresrecoveryhealthcare.com/blog/psychotic-break-v...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft
[2] https://features.propublica.org/weirton/police-shooting-leth...
It is not a bad question to ask. Lets do what lawyers do: change one fact and see how it affects the case at hand.
Issue at hand is bad behavior of individuals in a group. Is individual guilty of actions committed by other individuals while being part of that group?
I suppose it depends.
Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their politicians? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their sheriffs? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their neighbors? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their partners? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their kids?
I have problem with either of those despite seeing clearly what you are getting at. Starting from the bottom, I have a problem with 'sins of the father' justification all the way to the politician. I see an abstract reasoning that can take us to 'yes, inaction is a choice too', but is it in the same category? Does it even have the same weight?
<< There were even active coverups, Kentucky’s Attorney General went to great lengths to push the idea that the entire thing was perfectly legal!
Chicago is not better. Some stories are heart-wrenching and, as I stated before, I would not be able to be a cop just based on those alone, but I personally think you are trying to spread sin way too thin, which, contrary to what you think you are doing, is only distributing accountability even further and alienate even those, who could reasonably agree with you otherwise.
In very simple terms, if you are gonna define me as bad apple anyway by association only, I might as well stick to my tribe, where at least I will have some level of protection from the outside.
And that, I think, is the true problem.
You think the cops in your family are good because they are in your family and are nice to you. That's probably the extent of the details about their job you know
"Have you considered the average hn user is a rapist, of course they deny it and they dont talk about it. You think HN users are good because theyre nice to you!"
Im as anti-authoritarian as they come, but I really dont like hyperbolic arguments.
Getting pulled over leaving a bar on the way to a buy, with gun and badge in motorcycle roll. "I'm not unrolling that..." to prove he was who he said, "I think my boss would be more upset about dropping a buy than me blowing over on an alcohol test."
Or, getting caught in the middle of a shootout between the Feds and a biker gang.
Edit: My dad also quit two positions along the way, one because his boss was a clear racist, and another that had some other issues in the dept.
My mom was a dispatcher, and when retired was head of combined dispatch for a region. She mostly dealt with people in trouble, distress, or sometimes the absurd.
I apologize. This is not what I intended to convey.
That line was intended more as disclaimer ("hey. i am not completely objective here").
My actual argument follows beneath ("cops are just humans").
Unless you can show me that HN users are part of a structured organization notorious for rape, this isn't even remotely analogous.
Police are part of a hierarchy and brotherhood that is very well known to abuse its authority, act outside the law, and protect its own, all without legal repercussion.
Not at all..I accept we are all humans.
That said, define bad for me so that we are not talking about fairly relative and abstract terms and can be easily misconstrued.
For example, I do not want to get into specifics and you are certainly right that they would be foolish to disclose their own transgressions if any were committed for several different reasons.
However, the conversations we did have on some events[1] they were not involved in painted a relatively close picture of their thought process and considerations at play. I am going to paraphrase and try to capture the gist of that conversation in sentences that follow where 'they' refers to the cops on the scene ( and to an extent the blue shield/line phenomenon ).
In short, one of their own fucked up. They knew he fucked up, but they tried to protect him from immediate fallout. As related, they said family was paid off, but 'could not keep their mouths shut', which is where the resentment was with those who did not hold up their end of the bargain that was supposedly struck. And naturally, when the case made national news, everyone was pissed, because assumption was that money bought silence on the matter ( who footed the bill for that silence was not clear, but, presumably taxpayer ).
Now, the political fallout makes it more complicated, because the rank and file has had the impression that case was informally settled and, from their perspective, it was 'over'. Rank and file finds out they get no cover from leadership and so the thin blue line only grows stronger as a result.
Now, you might be thinking: "This is exactly what I am talking about. If you participate in any way in this, you are the bad guy.'
I urge you to consider what you would have done. This case was a clearly fucked up case. I would like to think I would have stood up.
That said, as a cop, just like when you are a doctor, or a lawyer or any other high stakes job, you will eventually make a mistake that will result in someone dying. You will fuck up. And in some extreme cases, you will kill someone. That is the reality of that job. And it is a lot to take in.
There are logical consequences to what I just said and I absolutely recognize it can be horrifying. There is a reason I compared cops to doctors and lawyers, because I think this could help offset some of the issues should we ever get to an actual working improvement of police in US, but I don't want to get too far ahead of this conversation.
With that in mind lets go through some of the scenarios:
'if you know your actions in the course of work may end up killing someone are you automatically a bad person?' 'if you identify with a group, because you understand the toll it takes, are you automatically a bad person?' 'if you become a member of that group, because $absolute_number_of_members did $bad_thing, are you automatically a bad person?'
I have more questions along those lines, but I worry that I already threw out a lot into the ether so I am curious of your response.
A cop ceases to be a cop when they take off the uniform. They can be perfectly nice people in outside life (although they can also not) but when the uniform goes on, they're contributors to a system of abuse.
"No good cops" does not mean good people don't go into policing. It means that those who insist on trying to meaningfully change the system get forced out, leaving only those who contribute to it.
There will never be a good cop until accountability is an actual thing in policing.
Even a "justified" shooting by a cop should be considered a horrific failure of process.
I think this is where we might disagree. I can't comment for other countries. I can comment a little about Chicagoland. If there is a failure, it is not the failure of the process ( here understood as policing ). At this point, 'justified shooting' is merely what I would classify as 'necessary violence'. I am not using that word lightly, because actual violence only creates problems.
It is the failure of:
1. Society that allowed a given issue to fester long enough to move beyond tension 2. Individuals' environment that contributed to it 3. Individuals' family and fiends 4. The individual
Police merely deals with the aftermath. I think you got it wrong.
In short, I agree with you. It is unreasonable to claim to that there are no issues ( and maybe even systemic issues ), but it is also unreasonable to claim that there is no such thing as a good cop. Cops are just people and people respond to the environment they are in. I think parent may exaggerating for brevity ( or at least I hope so ).
The solution is what it has always been, correct to the extent that you can until you get what you want in terms of results.
Naturally, this line of thinking opens rather uncomfortable set of questions, because:
What if the system works as intended given current incentives?
And that is a hard question I have no idea how to answer.