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Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by asveikau on Sunday March 19, 2023 @02:16PM (#35221871)
They could make it take more time to derive a key from a pin. That would make it more difficult to brute force.
Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by lyu07282 on Sunday March 19, 2023 @02:22PM (#35221938)
They do that already:

> This brute-force will very likely be successful, since PINs are usually very low-entropy. Now, granted, the key derivation function is PBKDF2 with 100000 iterations (+ HKDF), but that won't help with a 4 digit pin.

It would be better to not have that feature at all, that convenience feature goes a bit too far. But nice to see that's the only thing they found, I'm sure they looked for more severe issues but found none.

Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by candiddevmike on Sunday March 19, 2023 @03:30PM (#35222619)
While that may seem like a lot of iterations, in reality it doesn't take that much time at all, at least in my experience.

You could argue a security product shouldn't let folks set a PIN due to footguns like this and instead require something like WebAuthn for an "easier" login method.

Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by progbits on Sunday March 19, 2023 @02:30PM (#35222012)
The pin space is just too small. What's the longest an user is willing to wait? 10 seconds?

Times 10k that is just 27 hours. Spend a couple of bucks on a few beefy EC2 instances and you crack that in an hour or two.

Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by eviks on Sunday March 19, 2023 @03:12PM (#35222401)
It's not too small, your not limited to just numbers in your PIN on a computer
Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by lxgr on Monday March 20, 2023 @08:38AM (#35230631)
A PIN is, if not by definition then by practical user experience, a short, numeric secret. You really can‘t blame users for using one for a field that purports to ask for a PIN.
Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by eviks on Monday March 20, 2023 @02:34PM (#35236406)
Except this thread isn't about blaming the users, but assessing the potential for improvement, where this simple mistake leads to inaction So yeah, they should change the stupid name and be more clear that users should use letters as well, but it's still valuable to increase argon work factor parameters
Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by lxgr on Monday March 20, 2023 @03:01PM (#35236842)
If you call something a PIN, salted hashing is completely pointless (and software still doing it tells me that the vendor hasn't grasped this fact).

A Personal Identification Number typically has 10k (or less frequently a million) possible values. Hashing buys you a few seconds of brute force resistance here at most, which is completely useless.

If you dial up the hashing complexity enough to make a dent, even legitimate logins will start having an unacceptable UX and battery life impact. You're just on the wrong side of the e function with PINs.

> be more clear that users should use letters as well

The entire point of the feature is that the PIN, whether letters or numbers, is shorter and/or easier to type than your passphrase. If you require users to use something of equivalent security to their passphrase, you might as well remove the feature.

Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by eviks on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:35PM (#35242269)
I don't know why your repeat the same mistake with 10k, "typical" doesn't mean you ignore the atypical, that's still a net benefit.

Your last point is also misleading - no, you don't require the equivalent to master password, and yes, it still makes sense in that case. "Shorter/easier" can still mean enough entropy for the smaller threat model of local compromise (with even more entropy required in the master password for the bigger threat of cloud compromise). It's when it drops down to the level of literal 4-number PIN, then it becomes useless against this threat and only useful for an even smaller threat

Re:Bitwarden PINs can be brute-forced by IshKebab on Sunday March 19, 2023 @02:22PM (#35221933)
Consider how long you need to make it before it is infeasible to brute force a 4 digit PIN.