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Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by oarsinsync on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:45PM (#35138333)
> I mean... people pay for reading the stars, tarot cards

I used to consider these to be pretty worthless things too. After a while I started to realise that a lot of these things provide a lot of the same random platitudes that therapists typically provide too.

Given that therapists are a bit of a dice roll as far as the quality of advice you get, why not just instead make the advice given itself a dice roll. At that point, there’s a non negligible probability that the advice given by a half decent palm / star / tarot reader might actually be relevant.

Sure, it’s all just chance and luck, but when the advice ends up being relevant (or becomes self fulfilling in its relevance) and actually helps the receiver, why not?

(These learnings are brought to you by my ex who very patiently explained to me one of the ways I was an asshole when we were together. I’m now a bit more open minded and keep my eye rolls to myself behind my sunglasses)

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by stametseater on Monday March 13, 2023 @12:50PM (#35138428)
> At that point, there’s a non negligible probability that the advice given by a half decent palm / star / tarot reader might actually be relevant.

In most cases, the advice those people give probably isn't random at all. It's likely tailored to the client, based on "cold reading" techniques, the practitioners general experience with life and people, maybe the practitioner secretly scouring social media for information about the client, etc.

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by naniwaduni on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:07AM (#35148250)
At that point, you're just getting the unregulated, uninsured version of therapy, aren't you?
Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by stametseater on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @11:33AM (#35153187)
Exactly. Well.. mostly. I would say you're getting advice, not "therapy" per se, and that most people that others might seek advice from are not licensed therapists. Parents, mentors, priests, elders, etc.. all people that somebody might seek advice from who aren't licensed therapists, and generally nobody makes a big deal about it.

If you're going to the fortune teller or priest for advice, that's what you're getting and the quality of the product might even be good in some cases. If you're going to the fortune teller or priest to receive magical services, then obviously you're getting scammed.

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by benj111 on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:27PM (#35139135)
But if I buy a lottery ticket, there's theoretically a chance of winning, even though I never actually will. It would still be fraud if someone sold lottery tickets for a lottery that never was.

Tarot readers are selling a fake good. You can't really escape the ethical implications of that.

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by dwringer on Monday March 13, 2023 @02:12PM (#35139934)
As long as the fortune is vague enough to apply to more than 40-50 people, then the chance of a fabricated fortune-telling for you coming true simply by pure random coincidence seems to be greater than the chance of winning the lottery.
Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by FartyMcFarter on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:56AM (#35149268)
I see your point, but that's not how fortune telling is sold.
Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by TedDoesntTalk on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:12PM (#35138845)
You must have had some pretty bad therapists to compare all of them to tarot cards.
Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by mschuster91 on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:00PM (#35138622)
> Sure, it’s all just chance and luck, but when the advice ends up being relevant (or becomes self fulfilling in its relevance) and actually helps the receiver, why not?

It's like homeopathy: still a mixture between fraud, pseudoscience and sometimes outright dangerous advice, the ratio depending on the provider. And people can and do lose entire life savings to that shit. Just because someone's cold "went away" after downing a ton of sugar pills, it doesn't mean the homeopathy caused that - it was the person's own body all along.

The worst thing about all pseudoscience stuff is that accepting it as a society means that non-scientific opinions are accepted as an equal in democratic discourse - and that is the foundation on which quackery, vaccine denialism, MMS and a whole lot of conspiracy myths grow.

Besides: there's a reason why therapists (at least in Europe) generally have to be licensed similar to doctors... bad advice can literally kill people.

We, as a society, should push for equitable and accessible actual mental health care for everyone, provided by trained and continuously educated professionals - not for quackery.

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by AlecSchueler on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:26PM (#35139117)
The use of tarot cards as therapeutic projectives is actually backed by science though, [1] and more and more practitioners are making use of them in clinical settings [2].

You're jumping to call it quackery without having an open mind. That's not science, that's prejudice.

1: https://www.academia.edu/442955/Tarot_As_a_Projective_Techni...

2: https://psychcentral.com/pro/using-tarot-in-psychotherapy

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by benj111 on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:34PM (#35139273)
Is it ok for doctors to give sugar pills for ailments too? They're shown to be effective for a variety of ailments.

Tarot reading goes hand in hand with reading people's fortune. I don't see how you can separate the 2 and therefore have an ethically acceptable treatment, and that's assuming the placebo isn't entirely based on the fortune reading expectation.

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by AlecSchueler on Monday March 13, 2023 @01:44PM (#35139452)
Is it ok for a doctor to use a rorsach test? You know the patient's father isn't actually depicted on there, it's just a random blot of ink.

Tarot as fortune telling is only something I've seen used for entertainment purposes. In the clinical setting I've only seen them used as projectives.

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by benj111 on Monday March 13, 2023 @03:39PM (#35141285)
Tarot cards can't just be used as a projective because of their history. They are associated with fortune telling.

Denying that is like walking around with a swastika armband telling anyone who calls you a nazi that it's got nothing to do with the Nazis. Even if you're a Buddhist you still have to accept there an association there.

That is the problem with tarot cards. Some people are going to think you are reading their fortune, no matter how much you preface it.

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by com2kid on Monday March 13, 2023 @02:52PM (#35140586)
Research has been done and we know why some people see good results from alternative practitioners.

It is because alternative practitioners with bad bedside manners don't stay in business very long.

If you have a minor problem, sitting down with someone who you trust and talking about it for half an hour (much longer than the 5 or maybe 10 minutes you'll get with a traditional doctor), who then gives you some sugar pills and some other good advice (get up and stretch very half an hour), is almost always going to result in an improvement of symptoms.

A lot of problems, including pain, measurably improve when a patient feels they have been listened to, and that advice they are given is tailored to them.

Those longer, and often more frequent, appointments, also means the practitioner gets to know the patient better, which means underlying lifestyle problems can be identified. If the alternative doctor finds out someone is eating a lot of canned food, recommending they switch to "fresh natural vegetables" is a damned good way to lower someone's sodium and potassium intake.

The actual treatments are woo bullshit, but the care setting makes a huge difference.

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by mschuster91 on Monday March 13, 2023 @03:58PM (#35141598)
We could have actual doctors giving that device and detecting symptoms early, but no, we have far too few doctors everywhere, and in the US y'all have your insurance bullshittery on top of that.

The solution to the severe understaffing is not enabling quackers that end up recommending their patients MMS or against chemoterapy like they did with Steve Jobs.

Re:Audiophile forum debating which versions of memcpy had th... by com2kid on Monday March 13, 2023 @04:06PM (#35141718)
> The solution to the severe understaffing is not enabling quackers that end up recommending their patients MMS or against chemoterapy like they did with Steve Jobs.

I agree it isn't the solution.

> We could have actual doctors giving that device and detecting symptoms early,

One potential lesson is that we don't need full on doctors giving advice. We need people trained to forward to a real doctor if something really wrong is going on, but for a crap ton of problems, someone with basic medical (or just lifestyle/health) training is enough.

Heck there was one study that showed that elderly folks talking to each other about their arthritis pain while getting an evening drink at their local watering hole served to reduce pain symptoms.

Chatting with local bartenders and barbers can be nearly as good as professional therapy for some issues.

Having someone trusted just listen and parrot back common sense advice works really damn well.

Trusting the source of the advice, and believing it will work, has a huge impact on treatment.