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Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by fnordpiglet on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:56PM (#35044708)
I don’t understand this. There are a lot of places in the US, and certainly globally, where housing prices decrease. There are also plenty of folks who got soaked in 2008 and lost everything, and no one helped them. How precisely does “the government” do this house price propping up? Via loan guarantees to ensure liquidity in the mortgage market? These make houses affordable and accessible to most people. Without loan guarantees people would still be buying houses all cash, and through loans for high credit quality, but primarily by high value entities who can afford to buy and rent many properties. In this world housing would largely be corporate owned rental units. Prices alone wouldn’t be keeping people out, but rather lack of loan liquidity would ensure a lack of lending. What keeps housing values high isn’t loan liquidity, it’s the ability to convert property into cash flow via rentals. Ultimately to stay risk neutral in pricing the cash flow option for renting is what supports home values.

But I’ve seen nothing that guarantees anyone pricing continues to rise or that their home investment will make them rich. What it does do is force savings by allocating a portion of their loan to principal growth. Even if it doesn’t grow at all or even declines, it’ll be worth a lot more later than the latte they forwent 20 years ago.

If you want guaranteed returns, buy treasuries.

Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by BurningFrog on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:50PM (#35046651)
> How precisely does “the government” do this house price propping up?

Primarily by not allowing construction of new housing supply.

Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by fnordpiglet on Monday March 06, 2023 @04:34PM (#35047959)
All the economic research I’ve read says repealing zoning laws induced no meaningful decrease in home price. That makes sense - home builders build to maximize profit and aren’t in the business of devaluing property they buy to develop. They develop it in a way that appreciates prices to improve their margins. But like this piece there seems to be some view that market forces are shaped by immoral behavior on someone’s part, rather than simply that’s how things work in a world of scarcity.

We will see how things go in California! Maybe the anti NIMBY dream of style sky high SRO arcologies will come true and everyone will be living in communal peace in their bleak windowless cement efficiency. My bet is prices continue to rise for as long as people move into the region and developers don’t buy into the egalitarian view of affordable housing any more than they ever have.

Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by graeme on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:38PM (#35048778)
In virtually the whole of Canada and the United States, dense, walkable neighborhoods are illegal. Even if you get rid of one type of zoning, other types remain. For example, one of the Texas cities has no zoning laws, but it does have mandatory parking minimums, mandatory street setbacks, etc. Basically the city must be car oriented and low density, even if you can add commercial stuff in residential zones.

Japan is the one place in the world that freely allows density, and Tokyo has not seen rising prices. Note that though Japan's population is shrinking, Tokyo's is rising. Unlike North America, new housing production has kept up with population growth.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-housing-crisis-in-japan-ho...

Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by fnordpiglet on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:09PM (#35049147)
Square what you just said with the data:

https://resources.realestate.co.jp/buy/how-much-does-an-apar...

Utopia!

Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by graeme on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @10:58AM (#35056819)
A longer time chart is more instructive: https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-CM820_JHOUSI_4...

Thanks for pointing out that prices are rising, I may have misspoke. But the key point is that relative to other major cities Tokyo's prices are not rising anywhere near as fast. The chart from 2000 to 2019 was basically flat, and even from the lowest point maybe a ~15% rise

I expect even the current rise is dwarfed by rises in comparable cities

Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by BurningFrog on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:58PM (#35049646)
> They develop it in a way that appreciates prices to improve their margins

What way would that be?

All producers of goods and services maximize profit. That doesn't explain the unique housing sector price developments.

Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by fnordpiglet on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:54PM (#35050976)
What’s unique? I see nothing unique about high prices in high demand markets.
Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by dan-robertson on Monday March 06, 2023 @04:47PM (#35048123)
I think you make a good point about places in the US seeing falling prices.

It is obviously incorrect to say that prices are guaranteed to rise but I don’t think that’s what anyone claims.

I think the general claim is that policies around housing tend to prop prices up by restricting supply (zoning, permitting, higher building costs due to various regulations like stricter codes or safety standards as well as stuff like parking requirements, giving old properties lower taxes) or subsidising demand (loan guarantees, buyer assistance, etc). That is, governments choose housing policies that keep prices high at cost to taxpayers instead of policies that reduce house prices, which is what is meant about governments not wanting them to fall. Also, if house prices fall and the people think the government is responsible, the government probably gets voted out.

The reason that loan assistance for people (ie not including companies) causes house prices to go up is that it means for a given house price, mortgage payments will be lower so more people will be able to afford that price. Instead people tend to pay for the most they can afford and (for a non-silly definition of afford) and so they end up paying more because they are competing for the same houses.

Re:Maybe Treating Housing as an Investment Was a Colossal Mi... by fnordpiglet on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:38PM (#35048783)
On the loans, if you make loans less liquid and less accessible then fewer people will own homes because they can’t leverage into a house the can afford over 30 years but not this year. It likely won’t decrease the cost of housing because people still need housing, and will instead have to rent. There is enough capital on earth that those with capital will want that cash flow. See my point on rent : mortgage cash flow arbitrage. This would not lead to cheaper housing, just less people owning housing vs renting and more housing owned by fewer people - mostly corporations that have vast access to leverage at rates considerably more favorable. That seems like lose lose to me.

Zoning IMO is a red herring. Developers have no interest in driving property prices down with their marginal developments. They will develop in a way that sees prices stable or rise, which is favorable to them as property investors. People betting zoning law repeals will magically result in vast Soviet style SRO arcologies housing everyone affordably will be disappointed that the Victorian single family home torn down and redeveloped as a duplex is developed as a four story duplex with twice as much space, with each duplex roughly the same price as the original single family home. There also won’t be a massive selling of existing property because, well, NIMBYs like where they live. Ultimately we will just have less Victorians that will never be rebuilt and a handful more luxury duplexes.