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Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by Spooky23 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @10:32AM (#35030454)
The issue is that the standardized tests correlate with IQ, and IQ has been determined to be have racial and other biases.

I went to a shitty rural high school - high scores on my ACT made a huge difference as anyone who could read got out of that school with a 3.7.

Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by yellow_lead on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:08AM (#35030828)
IQ and race have a confounding variable - poverty. Malnourishment, abuse, lack of healthcare, etc can all be detrimental to a child's development.
Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by realjhol on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:25AM (#35031026)
Poverty correlates with high time preference. High IQ correlates with low time preference.
Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by civilized on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:09AM (#35030848)
What do you mean by bias?
Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by Spooky23 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:36AM (#35031117)
Different populations perform differently on average. There’s also a historical association with IQ assessment and eugenics.
Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by civilized on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:25PM (#35031698)
> Different populations perform differently on average

Does this mean that today's IQ tests have racial bias?

> There’s also a historical association with IQ assessment and eugenics.

Does this mean that today's IQ tests have racial bias?

Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by tptacek on Sunday March 05, 2023 @04:46PM (#35034328)
Yes, structurally if not deliberately (it is unlikely that mainstream IQ tests are anything but diligently designed to avoid overt bias, unlike those of the middle 20th century). If you measure something that has a large SES causative component, and SES is for whatever reason itself highly correlated with race, then your measurements will encode a racial bias.

The big debate in academic psychology is the extent to which factors like SES (and factors downstream of SES, like general health) confound the measurement of some kind of general intelligence. The evidence we have right now pretty clearly points to an effect, so it's down to what the size of that effect is.

Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by hijghula on Sunday March 05, 2023 @06:25PM (#35035349)
Your second statement is incorrect. Having a racial bias would mean that IQ tests are incorrect (having significantly different errors) for certain samples/groups. But no one is saying that.

Imagine a test to measure the resistance of various materials. Is the test biased because it shows that concrete is stronger than rotten wood? No, it just measures the resistance of different materials. If the measurement error (not the measurement itself) was significantly different for different materials then yes you could say the test is biased.

You are just saying that SES affects intelligence, which is most likely true and immediately prompts the question of what affects SES.

Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by civilized on Sunday March 05, 2023 @06:53PM (#35035602)
A large percentage of the population seems to believe that IQ and similar cognitive ability tests are something like a credit score, having no purpose but to direct society to the high scorers so that they can be showered with opportunity, while denying the same to low scorers. And it's true that tests like the SAT can have a big impact on the opportunities we get in life. But they can also be used in a more win-win way, to match people to opportunities they're ready for. And for that, you need an honest assessment of where the person is actually at, separate from how they got there.

A poor kid may score worse than they would have scored if they weren't poor, but if we want to know whether they're ready for MIT or a course above their grade level, it might do them a disservice to confound our perceptions of their actual current level with our personal indignation over socioeconomic inequalities and our hopes in the potential they'd realize if those inequalities were eliminated.

Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by civilized on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:01PM (#35035669)
Bias has many different meanings. Now, correct me if I'm mistaken, but in this context, I believe we are talking about bias as a difference between a measured value and a true value.

What is the true value in this case? Is it the counterfactual performance a person would have if their SES were not low? Would that be the "right" true value in all applications? Might it not be the case that, in some contexts, the "right" true value is the person's actual current ability level and not some counterfactual of how they would do in other circumstances that were perhaps more just and fair? For example, what if you are trying to give them the learning opportunity best suited to their actual current ability level, not trying to rank people and only give the top-ranked some special status or credential?

Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by PaulHoule on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:06PM (#35031505)
One thing that amuses me is that I occasionally see press releases about some Hollywood star (say Alyssa Milano) who took an IQ test and got a 145 score which is suspiciously the top score for

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven%27s_Progressive_Matrices

and given that standard variants of the test have 60 items anybody who is capable of learning a script could memorize them and get a perfect score. I imagine there is one psychologist who coaches you then you go see another psychologist across the street who administers the test.

Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by rayiner on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:32PM (#35031793)
Why would that be surprising? Gifted people tend to be that way in multiple areas. I wouldn't be surprised if the average IQ in Hollywood is quite above the overall average.
Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by tekla on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:20AM (#35030981)
> standardized tests correlate with IQ

> IQ has been determined to be have racial and other biases.

Citation needed

Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by bradleyjg on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:54AM (#35031365)
What I’m saying is that isn’t “the issue,” it’s just pretext.

Schools can do affirmative action for African Americans without making standardized testing optional, they have been for decades. What’s harder for them to do without getting rid of such tests is discriminating against Asians (and middle class whites) in favor of rich whites.

It’s no coincidence that this is happening in the wake of the Harvard lawsuit. What these schools want is a class made up entirely of diversity, athlete, and development admits. The first generation Asian-American kid isn’t taking a seat away from a black kid, he’s taking it from the son of the CFO of a Fortune 500 company.

Re:Dropping the Sat Requirement Is a Luxury Belief by Spooky23 on Sunday March 05, 2023 @12:15PM (#35031582)
Affirmative action is a big bugaboo that will probably be subject of a Supreme Court action.

I think these are complex issues and there’s no scenario where everyone is happy. As a society we’d be better off to tone down the fawning over Ivy League schools.