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Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by dcow on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @10:36PM (#34991654)
I used to be a tip supporter. Not anymore with the amount of deceptive BS that's happened in the last 10 years. I am very close to deciding not to tip, ever. I have no moral qualms with this I've decided. If everyone got onboard it would all work out. Can we just make it illegal to pay below minimum wage even for service work already?

Until then, I have a rule: I only tip when someone is working outside of regular working hours to act as my servant. That's like evening dinner service where someone is actually waiting my table. Sometimes I'll tip at lunch for pleasant service even though it breaks my rule because I'm human. And sometimes for coffee early in the morning. I also have tip bands. I tip $5 up to $50 ticket and $10 up to $100 tocket, on the pre-tax and pre-other-fees price.

Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by eurleif on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @10:44PM (#34991721)
>Can we just make it illegal to pay below minimum wage even for service work already?

Note that the sum of wage + tips must reach the minimum wage, or else the employer is required to make up the difference. It's a common misconception that tipped workers can earn less, in total, than minimum wage.

Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by jimkleiber on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @10:54PM (#34991794)
Yes, and I'm curious to learn more about how well employers comply with it by making up the difference, my gut says they probably don't comply very well.

In just a quick look, I found this:

> 5. Wage theft is particularly acute in food and drink service, and restaurants across the country have been found to be in violation of wage and hour laws. It is true that the law requires restaurants to ensure that tipped workers receive at least the regular minimum wage when their tips are included, but the reality is that huge numbers of restaurants—helped by too-weak enforcement efforts—ignore these requirements. In investigations of over 9,000 restaurants, the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) found that 84 percent of investigated restaurants were in violation of wage and hour laws, including nearly 1,200 violations of the requirement to bring tipped workers’ wages up to the minimum wage. Among the restaurants that were investigated, tipped workers were cheated out of nearly $5.5 million. Workers in the food and drink service industries are more likely to suffer minimum wage violations than workers in other industries. [0]

[0]: https://www.epi.org/blog/seven-facts-about-tipped-workers-an...

Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @10:58PM (#34991829)
> Note that the sum of wage + tips must reach the minimum wage, or else the employer is required to make up the difference.

But tips are also often used as a performance evaluation metric, and falling low enough that the employer has to make it up often leads to termination, so, where this is possible (as it most obviously is where cash tips are involved) its not uncommon for employees to be incentivized to artificially inflate tips.

Eliminating the lower tipped based minimum wage (which, when followed, means that tips actually go to the employer, not the tipped employee, to a point) means that, even where this practice and pressure exists, it doesn’t leas to suppressing wages below the general mininum.

Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by ents on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @10:51PM (#34991776)
That is the law. That law is generally not followed in the real world.
Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by eurleif on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @10:55PM (#34991806)
The comment I replied to said there should be a law. I pointed out that there already is. If we're talking about whether the law is sometimes violated, that's a whole different discussion.

Also, I don't see any reason why violating the law in that way should be any more common than violating it by paying non-tipped workers less than minimum wage. Either one would require the same degree, and same kind, of fraud. So tipped workers should be no worse off in practice than non-tipped workers.

Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by LightHugger on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @11:25PM (#34992000)
What the person you replied to suggested and what you say exist are different things in reality. Tips plus the rest covered by the employer simply does not mean minimum wage. So no, there is not a law, you have no motivation for pretending there is, so why are you?
Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by vore on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @10:48PM (#34991745)
I don't understand this logic: you know that waitstaff in restaurants are paid less than minimum wage because they make it up in tips, so you choose not to tip them which actively contributes to them making less than minimum wage? The system is shitty but you're okay with screwing over the individuals who are forced to participate in the system with "no moral qualms"?
Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by dcow on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @10:56PM (#34991812)
No I just said I tip at least 10% at full service restaurants because I understand the situation, but I'd rather not anymore.
Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by vore on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @11:07PM (#34991880)
I think you should include that in your original comment, because it gave me a very different impression!
Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by dcow on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @11:14PM (#34991917)
It's in the last paragraph where I describe my practice of tipping in bands. Flat rate numbers roughly related to the amount of the bill.
Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by soupfordummies on Thursday March 02, 2023 @02:27PM (#35000581)
(Assuming you're in the US)

That's still kind of a dick move, man...

That's the social contract -- you go to a full service restaurant, you tip 20% of the bill.

I can understand for things like even retail and other non-traditional PoS stuff but for full service dining, this isn't new.

If you want to opt out of participating in the whole tip structure there, then you probably should opt out of participating in full service dining as well.

Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by shitlord on Thursday March 02, 2023 @07:18PM (#35003995)
> That's the social contract -- you go to a full service restaurant, you tip 20% of the bill.

When did it go from 15% to 20%? Is it because people don't tip in cash anymore, making it more difficult for service staff to evade taxes?

Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by aydyn on Thursday March 02, 2023 @09:18PM (#35005016)
It didn't except in the minds of delusional people, and I'm never paying 20%.
Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by dcow on Friday March 03, 2023 @05:29PM (#35015909)
When I was raised and educated on these matters, it was 15%. 20% is reserved for exceptional service.

I've actually decided the real problem is clueless people like you trying to tip police others over immaterial minutia like exact tip percentage. Do my napkin FFS and see for yourself what my percentage averages out to. You're the ones manufacturing frantic guilt. It's like atheists and unknowns. Christ.

Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by Indomit on Friday March 03, 2023 @05:43PM (#35016039)
This is strange.

Isn’t the idea that servers knowingly make a gamble that they can generate more from tips (performance) than less than minimum wage?

So if you order a drink that costs $1000, the server should get $200 for that?

Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by dd36 on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @10:50PM (#34991767)
They’d have to quit or the restaurant pay better.
Re:Tech Is Allowing Businesses to Overcharge You in Tips by usui on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @11:49PM (#34992132)
This is so... complicated... Reading all of the rules you wrote makes me feel the same way as you:

> It leaves me disillusioned with the entire notion.