News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by gwright on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:24PM (#34928784)
You need competition, which means you need developers to add more housing units, which means you need to change the regulations that prevent that from happening.

Problems in real-estate are almost always government created IMHO and not "capitalism".

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by arrosenberg on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:30PM (#34928877)
What stops the new units from being added to the cartel? Cartel members would be the best positioned to acquire them.

The government enforces capitalism laws (rather than socialist or chartalist) so how do you distinguish?

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by scatters on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:40PM (#34929015)
At some point the cartel will run out of capital. Before then, the mispricing becomes evident enough that speculators come in on the other side and burst the bubble.
Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by pixl97 on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:43PM (#34929053)
The (rental) market can remain irrational far longer than you (the renter) can remain solvent.
Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by maxsilver on Friday February 24, 2023 @04:42PM (#34930518)
> At some point the cartel will run out of capital

They can't really though, at least not anytime soon -- the cycle itself gives the cartel more capital. If they buy units as they come onto the market, they hold the equity in those units, which they can instantly mortgage out to get more capital, which they can spend on more units, which they can instantly mortgage out to get more capital. This is especially true when interest rates are low, (the lower rates are, the cheaper this cycle is to continue -- at interest rates below the real inflation rate, they effectively get given free money to do this)

And yes, it exposes them to the risk that eventually this bubble could pop, but it could take many years (decades even?) before that happens.

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by gwright on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:35PM (#34928936)
What are "capitalism laws"? My point is that the government is preventing the transactions. Doesn't matter if we are talking about a republic, a parliamentary system, a monarchy, a socialist country, authoritarian, feudal, local gangs, organized crime, etc.

It requires power to prevent voluntary transactions and that comes in lots of flavors.

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by arrosenberg on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:39PM (#34928994)
I misspelled capitalist - defined as laws that benefit those with capital.

My point is you are distinguishing between government and capitalism - capitalism is an attribute of the government and power structure. The people with capital are the ones preventing the transactions (to their own benefit of course).

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by gwright on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:42PM (#34929038)
> capitalism is an attribute of the government and power structure

I don't think that is a common formulation of the idea of "capitalism".

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by arrosenberg on Friday February 24, 2023 @03:00PM (#34929299)
Enlighten us then? What is the common formulation according to you?
Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by topaz0 on Friday February 24, 2023 @03:43PM (#34929859)
Marxist analysis isn't that rare in my experience.
Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by hbrn on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:55PM (#34929231)
> What stops the new units from being added to the cartel? Cartel members would be the best positioned to acquire them.

If competition is unrestricted, cartels are unstable structures. It only takes one member unwilling to join cartel to ruin them. That's why drug cartels are killing each other and smaller competitors.

There are exceptions, but that's where antitrust laws come in.

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by munificent on Friday February 24, 2023 @05:57PM (#34931382)
> It only takes one member unwilling to join cartel to ruin them.

It only takes one member in an enviroment protected from all other actions of the cartel to ruin them.

If all economic actors only interacted in the marketplace itself, then, yes, cartels are unstable. But businesses are not spherical cows in a vacuum.

In practice, cartels can exert all sorts of forces to insulate themselves. While most don't go to the extreme of drug cartels which you should note are quite adept at maintaining their stability, they can still to plenty without resorting to violence. Off the top of my head:

* Economies of scale, barriers of entry, and other Econ 101 stuff that privilege large entrenched actors over upstarts.

* Threatening to stop giving contracts to builders if they work with the competitor.

* Threat of social sanctions since many of the people who run these businesses all know each other and play together. Pretty awkward to break up a cartel at 10am and then go to your regularly scheduled golf game with its owners at 4pm.

* Buying smaller competitors outright before they defect.

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by hbrn on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:53PM (#34932491)
> Economies of scale, barriers of entry, and other Econ 101 stuff that privilege large entrenched actors over upstarts.

All of those already exist without cartels.

> Threatening to stop giving contracts to builders if they work with the competitor

This assumes that pool of builders is somehow limited, but if that's the case, builders have leverage. How exactly do you see this conversation going?

- If you work for our competitor, we won't give you any contracts!

- But he can just hire other builders.

- He can't, you're the only builders in the area.

- Oh. Well then, how about we go work for both you and your competitor, and you have to pay us more. What are you going to do, we're the only builders in the area.

> Threat of social sanctions since many of the people who run these businesses all know each other and play together

There's potentially billions of dollars to chase, but what's stopping you is that this will piss of your golf buddies. Right.

> Buying smaller competitors outright before they defect

You can't just assume you can buy any company. Why don't drug cartels just "buy" each other? Surely it's preferable to non-stop murdering.

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by danaris on Friday February 24, 2023 @09:31PM (#34933214)
> All of those already exist without cartels.

Well, sure, but in an environment with a cartel, they will privilege the cartel over other actors in the system.

> This assumes that pool of builders is somehow limited

And it is. It's limited to the builders who operate within the geographic area the cartel operates in.

In general, you're just dismissing these very practical criticisms with more "idealized market theory" that only works when it doesn't have to take real frictions into account, or by just saying what boils down to "nuh-uh".

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by User23 on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:33PM (#34928909)
There are plenty of housing units in the USA. Housing is extremely affordable in parts of many major American cities such as Detroit and Baltimore to name just a couple. For example you can buy a house in lovely Baltimore for under $25,000 in a neighborhood with amenities like a walkable park, and tennis and basketball courts[1]. The complaint is never really "housing isn't affordable," it's more along the lines of "I can't afford to live in the most desirable coastal real estate in the entire world" or "I can't afford to live in a safe place with a good school district" (a classism/racism dog whistle if ever there was one).

[1] https://livebaltimore.com/neighborhoods/madison-eastend/

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by pixl97 on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:47PM (#34929126)
Ah, yes, I found that $25k house in Baltimore...

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2011-E-Lafayette-Ave-Balt...

I see some 'houses' in the area that you're looking at for $130k, built in WWII and likely have heating bills high enough to bankrupt the wealthy unless the place is ripped apart and modern insulation is put in.

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by mathgorges on Friday February 24, 2023 @04:37PM (#34930459)
As a native Detroiter I can confidently tell you that any house you can get for $25,000 will come with externalities that will make the house undesirable on balance.

Large back tax bill, lack of city services (e.g. if live in Springwells, good luck getting a reasonable response time from Detroit PD if you're being burgled) and an unsafe transit situation are the most common ones I can think of.

The houses are cheap for a reason. Its not as though Detroit is filled with provincial oafs that don't know what they're selling.

Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by skrtskrt on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:44PM (#34929067)
the end state of capitalism is just companies big enough to regulate competition out of existence. Capitalism does not mean free market.
Re:I saw RealPage's crappy rent-jacking-up software so you d... by drewcoo on Friday February 24, 2023 @03:09PM (#34929419)
> Problems in real-estate are almost always government created IMHO and not "capitalism".

But who buys the government?