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Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by sph on Friday February 24, 2023 @06:32AM (#34923452)
The "children" excuse + most of the population saying "I don't need privacy, I have nothing to hide" is a double whammy against any form of encryption and it's just a matter of time before our Internet privacy rights are completely stripped away.

A huge educational campaign is necessary to convince people and the average politician that being pro-encryption doesn't mean being criminals or pedophiles. So it's a lost battle already, and the intelligence services everywhere know it's just a matter of time.

Eventually a pro-privacy activist will be found with child pornography and everybody will cheer and applaud any form of privacy-stripping law.

The children angle is insidious, and where the discussion keep devolving even in tech-savvy forums like this one, instead if seeing it's convenient and very effective marketing to hide anti-privacy goals.

Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by ta1243 on Friday February 24, 2023 @06:46AM (#34923535)
Easy to frame a headline against it. "New bill to allow Jeremy Corbyn to read your secret messages and Tories WONT FIGHT IT"
Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by d3nj4l on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:25AM (#34923779)
The poor man’s not even in labour anymore, let him rest!
Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by vaccarium on Friday February 24, 2023 @08:48AM (#34924450)
Nitpick: he is a Labour member but not a member of the Parliamentary Labour Party, so he sits in the Commons as an independent.
Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by toyg on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:28AM (#34936499)
He'll stand as independent at the next election, hence getting automatically expelled from the party.
Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by roenxi on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:45AM (#34923912)
> The children angle is insidious...

The entire rhetorical position is difficult. One of the (somewhat implicit) rules of public discourse seems to be "assume good faith". To make the argument that people should have freedom from government requires an acknowledgement that government officials regularly do more harm than good. It is insanely challenging to carry that position in a debate. Keep your eye out for the handful of people who manage to do it without being tarred as crazy. That rhetorical imbalance makes it safe and straightforward for power politicians and police to argue that they should get to read everyone's emails.

It is tricky to understand why centralised power is a terrible thing that will lead to corruption and injustice. Implementing a system that tolerates privacy requires the bureaucracy to not grasp power. We've always been lucky in a sense that a critical mass of people learned they need to fight to protect freedom as an ideal, even if they can't exactly explain why or if the details seem to lead to bad outcomes (see also "fight for your right to say it"). It may be the only defence against a Stalinist- or Maoist-style collapse.

Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by robertlagrant on Friday February 24, 2023 @08:09AM (#34924091)
> requires an acknowledgement that government officials regularly do more harm than good

I don't think it's that. The argument should be similar to the Veil of Ignorance: do you want every conceivable future government to have these powers?

Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by roenxi on Friday February 24, 2023 @08:31AM (#34924287)
Well, hypothetically, if the government on average does more good than harm why would you not want that? Sure you'd get Hitler-lite on occasion, but that would be balanced out by anti-Hitler-lite doing good.

Of course, the damage the bad apples do far outweighs the benefits of the good so that argument doesn't hold. A century of good governance with global assistance barely balanced out the damage Hitler triggered in 5 years. Destruction is easy and creation is hard. And that plays out on the small scale too with small numbers of corrupt officials undoing huge amounts of work by good people.

If we had perfect information, we'd find that the spying apparatus of the 5 Eyes has done far more bad than good to the general welfare. The political corruption that must be causing is immense, we already know that every president since Obama has been targeted by the intelligence apparatus in some form. It is unlikely it ends there.

I'm less sure about the situation in the UK, but they generally follow the US trend.

Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by jstarfish on Friday February 24, 2023 @06:47PM (#34931922)
> That rhetorical imbalance makes it safe and straightforward for power politicians and police to argue that they should get to read everyone's emails.

The fundamental problem is that given any permission (an extension of trust), individuals will--100% of the time--abuse it in the absence of oversight.

It's not a matter of if/when, only a matter of to what degree. But being individuals, we are empowered to choose how we grant or revoke such permissions to other individuals. If you stop trusting your spouse, you can revoke their access to your email.

Government is a superset of Individuals. There is no greater clique they are accountable to. Any permission extended (surrendered) to it is an implicit conversion of ownership. If you stop trusting your government to act responsibly with surveillance, you can't revoke that permission. It's no longer yours.

...like the toy you hand over to the playground bully because he "just wants to see it for a second." He was polite enough to state the conditions of release upfront-- but nothing on the playground compelled him to actually abide by his own terms. You find out too late he's a liar, and if you're lucky, you'll get your toy back, when he's done with it, and likely in pieces.

It's frustrating trying to protect children from amorphous threats whose access methods are abstract, virtual and obfuscated by incomprehensible technology and encryption. The question is always whether we maintain absolute anarchy or accept nanny-state dystopia.

Maybe it's time we consider kicking kids off the internet altogether before surrendering any more personal rights to a bully with the weight-class of an entire institution.

Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by survirtual on Friday February 24, 2023 @09:40AM (#34924922)
100%

I see you posting an opinion I agree strongly with here often. Glad you’re still at it.

I will offer a positive side to this situation. Their war against math proves the math works and they don’t have an internal workaround. Since a war against math is bound to fail in long term (just like the war on vegetables aka “war on drugs”), short term victories of oppression won’t shut down the future.

The children angle is insidious, especially when whistle blowers, reporters, and power players in revealing high up people involved in pedophilia seem to all magically have unfortunate accidents. It is a tool to emotionally manipulate a population which is ravenous against pedophilia. A very effective one. I look forward to the day these people are all held accountable.

Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by 908B64B197 on Friday February 24, 2023 @10:26AM (#34925387)
> Since a war against math is bound to fail in long term

Not so fast. We're getting government pushed "equitable math" curriculum for everyone who can't afford private school. [0] [1]

[0] https://reason.com/2021/05/04/california-math-framework-woke...

[1] https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by bombolo on Friday February 24, 2023 @10:48AM (#34925664)
I'm having a hard time taking a website called "free minds and free markets" seriously as a reliable source.
Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by aftbit on Friday February 24, 2023 @10:54AM (#34925744)
There is already a more subtle problem here, at least in countries with case law. The people who end up on trial trying to defend encryption are typically guilty (as very roughly 90% of people who go to trial are). Many of them are guilty of things that most of us look very strongly down upon, like possessing and sharing child sexual abuse material. Thus if you want to set a strong precedent for protection of encryption, you end up defending exactly this sort of person.
Re:Signal would 'walk' from UK if Online Safety Bill undermi... by ThePowerOfFuet on Friday February 24, 2023 @05:38PM (#34931159)
[citation needed]