News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by skywhopper on Monday February 20, 2023 @08:58AM (#34868103)
This article fails to follow up its theoretical assertions with any data about how much spending is done on new, infrastructure, maintenance, or the split between federal, state, and local governments currently. I assume there’s some context missing, but it’s clearly part of a very specific political agenda that I’m not familiar with. I can’t even tell if I support it or not since the article itself is so vague. Most “infrastructure” spending these days is on maintenance of roads, true enough. Not sure if they are in favor of that or against it. Do they want more bridges or repaired bridges? Do they want local governments to own maintenance of local infrastructure? Do they think we have too much or too little “infrastructure”? Are we building the right or wrong kind of “infrastructure”? Is there a “right” kind? I can’t tell what they think.
Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by PaulHoule on Monday February 20, 2023 @09:07AM (#34868182)
I would say Strong Towns believes that infrastructure in American cities is unsustainable. In particular the "commercial strip" architecture and many suburban developments don't generate enough tax revenue to pay for the infrastructure that supports them.

They are not against infrastructure development but they are against unprofitable infrastructure development and they see "infrastructure for the sake of infrastructure" not as something that will lift people out of poverty but as something that will keep people poor.

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by leereeves on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:28AM (#34868987)
Even if they are correct about the costs and taxes, that doesn't mean the infrastructure is unsustainable. It only implies that more taxes will be needed to pay for infrastructure (which is basically the debate we had recently).

I'm not even sure I should call it a debate - more funding for infrastructure seemed to be popular and bipartisan, even if some parts of the actual bill were controversial.

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by matheweis on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:05PM (#34875955)
> It implies that more taxes will be needed to pay for infrastructure

The dollars that need to be diverted to infrastructure could be invested in education, social programs, parks, and so on.

As I understand it, the “unsustainable” argument makes the case that the real costs of maintaining the infrastructure are going to become large enough that there will be no room left without raising taxes (to unsustainably high levels) or (also unsustainably) cut from other also necessary programs.

Judging from the ongoing debate about raising the debt ceiling, one might even argue that we’re already there..

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by morsecodist on Monday February 20, 2023 @09:06AM (#34868163)
I'm a big fan of theirs. They want less car infrastructure. They argue, among other things, that it is inherently not maintainable because it's maintenance is too costly for the level of density it encourages to sustain.

They prefer more housing density and transit options so infrastructure investments are more sustainable.

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by causality0 on Monday February 20, 2023 @09:06AM (#34868173)
If you greatly oversimplify the StrongTowns philosophy, you get "fuck personal car ownership". Looking through that lens should let you answer your questions.
Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by actionfromafar on Monday February 20, 2023 @09:28AM (#34868376)
That may be as you say, to oversimplify. (Until it's not quite right.) Poorer townspeople can't afford to have cars either. I'd rather be able to afford a car I don't have to use every day, than being forced to keep some rustbucket running because I have to use it every day to get to work and to buy groceries.

"Fuck the absolute necessity of car ownership" I'd say strikes a balance.

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by shawabawa3 on Monday February 20, 2023 @09:38AM (#34868478)
I would put it as "Fuck the subsidising of car ownership" - as that's what strong towns really comes down to - the fact that car-focused infrastructure cannot pay for itself and so has to be subsidised
Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by actionfromafar on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:03AM (#34868718)
There is something missing here I think. Creating a playing field where only car owners can play, is not even subsidising car ownership. It's some kind of gate-keeping. It's subsidising the preference for car accessability for sure, which would be unkempt even if everyone could afford cars.

But when people can't even afford cars, it becomes something even weirder than subsidising cars.

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by NorthOf33rd on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:08AM (#34868765)
It’s more like “fuck subsidizing anything other than the 1st ring suburbs.” Strong towns’ fiscal philosophy looks great if you’re in a stable or growth market without any significant poverty. I’m all for investing in small walkable communities, but while their policies rail against the exurbs, they would be just as detrimental to our inner cities as they would be to 1970s onward suburban development.
Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by actionfromafar on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:28AM (#34868990)
Please elaborate, I don't see how it automatically is detrimental to inner cities.
Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by NorthOf33rd on Monday February 20, 2023 @11:28AM (#34869664)
The key messages of strongtowns are unambiguous 1) fiscal conservatism and 2) small-scale self dependence.

Small scale self dependence is a significant problem in the US (and many parts of the world) where the poor have been, through intentional historic policy, ghettoized. If you first scale back spending to maintenance levels, and then push against state level redistribution, you end up with pretty predictable results that look alot like the ghost of redlining come back to life. Even if you excise #2 from the platform, it's still the end result. By explicitly adopting strongtowns brand fiscal austerity, there just wont be money left to fund schools in poor neighborhoods.

Look, I'm not saying what we've got now is a perfect solution, far from it. I even think that if we could start from absolute scratch, there are some aspects of strong towns that would solve some of today's ills. But we have poor cities, of every makeup, size, demographic, and skin color, and I don't think that "market urbanism" (ie the same market forces that got us to where we are today albeit with stronger federation) can get us out.

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by Spivak on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:24AM (#34868939)
Who’s subsidizing car ownership? If you look at the rate of car ownership outside of top 5 metro areas it’s 93%+ everywhere with with on average more than two cars per household and that’s before commercial vehicles that take you places, stock your stores, and deliver your packages. And the usage of your own personal vehicles is taxed in proportion via gasoline.

When we’re talking about government services that literally everyone uses multiple times over it stops being a subsidy and starts being “we all pay for it collectively.”

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by nayuki on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:59AM (#34869328)
> Free, off-street parking mandated in building codes

> Exempting pickup trucks and SUVs from emissions laws

> Lack of vehicle safety laws to protect pedestrians and cyclists

> A mortgage interest deduction drives suburban sprawl

> Pedestrians have limited ability to sue drivers

> Pedestrians can’t sue car makers for defects

> Hit and runs are rarely prosecuted

> Out-of-pocket car expenses don’t cover the cost of roads

> That’s right: Registration fees, rising gas prices, insurance, and toll booths don’t come close to covering the cost of roadways. The federal gas tax hasn’t gone up since 1993, under-pacing inflation along with state gas taxes. The difference is recouped with universal taxes that pay no attention to how often a person drives.

-- https://stacker.com/society/how-driving-subsidized-america

Also: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/02/09/study-car-ownership-c... , https://medium.com/radical-urbanist/cars-gets-billions-in-hi... , https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180092...

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by adammarples on Monday February 20, 2023 @02:13PM (#34871605)
Who is subsidising car ownership: the people in the metro areas of course. Huge amounts of infrastructure spending go on suburban sprawl, which is only useful to people who live in the suburban sprawl and who must own cars to do so.
Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by michaelt on Monday February 20, 2023 @09:47AM (#34868549)
> Most “infrastructure” spending these days is on maintenance of roads, true enough. Not sure if they are in favor of that or against it. Do they want more bridges or repaired bridges?

The Strong Towns movement believes [1], for many decades American towns have been building suburban homes with 75ft of road in front of them, but only making enough tax revenue from the homes to maintain 50ft of road.

Such developments seem like a good deal for the city in the short term, because the tax revenue starts coming in immediately, while the maintenance costs won't come due for 10+ years as the road starts showing its age.

But beyond the short term, it's unsustainable and leaves towns teetering on the edge of bankruptcy because they've got more infrastructure than they can afford to maintain.

So Strong Towns argues for denser communities; but they do so from a fiscally conservative republican standpoint, rather than using left-wing arguments about community, environmental friendliness and public transit.

[1] https://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2015/12/why-conserv...

Re:Everything that’s wrong with America in two charts. Yeah,... by kswnin on Monday February 20, 2023 @05:17PM (#34873698)
This article is definitely written for someone who is already aware of what Strong Towns is going for.

But I think that you may be missing the point of the article, which is simply criticizing the heading of the first graph: "Net Civilian Public Investment, percent of GDP". The article is merely claiming that that metric isn't valid, while assuming that you, as a reader of Strong Towns, already believe that too much is being spent on the creation of new infrastructure.

Justifying that point is basically the entire purpose of the rest of the website.