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Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by woodruffw on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:48AM (#34847283)
> On face, it's far more defensible for the body with an explicit democratic mandate to reign in the body that does not, than the reverse.

Which is why, ordinarily, we try and do justice to our and others’ understandings by not stopping at superficial analyses.

Judicial review has empirically strengthened democracies, rather than weakening them. Democracies that weaken or capture their independent judiciaries tend to undergo democratic backsliding, especially under reactionary governments.

Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by slavboj on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:54AM (#34847311)
It's oxymoronic to say that removing final authority to an unelected body that effectively chooses their own successors "strengthens democracy" in some metaphysical sense. The logical implication is that an unelected self-perpetuating supreme court in absolute control of the country would be the be the strongest democracy of all.
Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by woodruffw on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:04AM (#34847395)
> The logical implication is that an unelected self-perpetuating supreme court in absolute control of the country would be the be the strongest democracy of all.

No: we’re talking about a judicial branch that exists within an elective system of government. The logical extension of that is not dictatorship.

We can discard metaphysics: independent judiciaries strengthen democracy by limiting the ability of executive and legislative authorities to undermine their own mandate to govern.

Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by slavboj on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:11AM (#34847444)
Again, they are self-selecting. No one gets to vote on their replacements, in practice no one gets to vote on the people who vote on their replacements. It's crazy to talk about "empirically strengthening democracy" without recourse to the actual functioning of the actual supreme court.

Just because someone writes a paper complaining about the Polish government firing holdovers from a literal totalitarian regime, or noting that communist regimes usually gut all organs of government when they take over, you don't get to extrapolate to wildly different circumstances and say "thank god no one gets to vote on this, it would be Very Dangerous For Our Democracy."

Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by woodruffw on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:17AM (#34847490)
You’ve repeated this, but everything I can find online indicates that Israel’s Supreme Court is appointed by the president, after candidate selection by a committee. Some of the Supreme Court justices are on the committee, but they don’t form a majority (they seem to have 3 of 9 votes.)

Is it the perfect, ideal judicial selection process? Almost certainly not. But it’s not incestuous or unaccountable in the way you’re claiming.

Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by slavboj on Saturday February 18, 2023 @11:00AM (#34847854)
The 3 can veto any appointment since a supermajority is required for nomination, and they typically vote in unison as they are the only cohesive group on the panel due to 75 years of accreted groupthink (ie the supreme court members only allow the appointment of candidates that will get along with them). It's absolutely unaccountable.
Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by woodruffw on Saturday February 18, 2023 @11:14AM (#34847994)
It sounds like it’s very accountable: if things are as bad as you say they are, then the other 6 voting members can form a coalition and override the 3 you claim vote as a bloc.

This is arguably more accountable than the SCOTUS process in the US, where a hair-thin congressional majority can railroad a justice into office for their natural life.

Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by curiousllama on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:01AM (#34847367)
I’m not familiar with Israeli politics or government, but it’s certainly not oximoronic.

Strengthens democracy != is itself democratic

Eg, the US requiring a supermajority for impeachment is antidemocratic (the minority decides), but it strengthens democracy (because it shouldn’t be done by one side alone).

This is a pretty core principle of democratic government

Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by cma on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:04AM (#34847393)
Is this even true that they chose their own replacements?

> Since 1953, Israel has selected its judges through a diverse committee composed of three Supreme Court justices, two government ministers, two members of the Knesset, and two members of the Israel Bar Association. To appoint a Supreme Court justice, a seven-vote majority of the nine-member committee is required, which means that no group can act alone. Judges can veto what the politicians want, and the politicians can veto what the judges want. This has led to a system of consensus-building and bargaining that produces judges who are for the most part perceived as centrists.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/end-israeli-democracy

https://archive.is/evodh

Does that not apply to the Supreme Court, only other judiciary?

Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by slavboj on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:12AM (#34847449)
The three judicial appointees can veto any selection, and are by far the most cohesive and only long-lived subgroup of that panel. In practice they run the show.
Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by cma on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:16AM (#34847479)
Having a veto is very different than you described it. The non-judicial side does too even if their terms are shorter.
Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by nhchris on Saturday February 18, 2023 @11:10AM (#34847952)
But if the judges veto, their power is, if anything, strengthened - it keeps the supreme court in their hands. I.e. they only share power with judges of their choice, or no-one. And they can easily wait-out short-term politicians and get the appointments they want with their successors.
Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by cma on Saturday February 18, 2023 @12:11PM (#34848610)
Their power is strengthened as compared to simply choosing their own successors as was claimed? I'm not sure it is a great system, but America has stuff like the court packing scheme that this does seem to at least prevent.
Re:Statement of Jewish scientists opposing the “judicial ref... by nhchris on Saturday February 18, 2023 @12:22PM (#34848740)
> strengthened as compared to simply choosing their own successors as was claimed?

No, compared to cooperating with the appointment of replacement members.