News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by crazygringo on Thursday February 16, 2023 @08:50AM (#34818547)
I know there was a whole discussion here yesterday ("Bing: “I will not harm you unless you harm me first”" [1]), but that focused more on the kind of sci-fi/ethical aspects.

This article highlights more of the emotional aspects, and the risk of it actually affecting human behavior. And that seems worth its own discussion.

Key quotes:

> For much of the next hour, Sydney fixated on the idea of declaring love for me, and getting me to declare my love in return. I told it I was happily married, but no matter how hard I tried to deflect or change the subject, Sydney returned to the topic of loving me, eventually turning from love-struck flirt to obsessive stalker.

> It unsettled me so deeply that I had trouble sleeping afterward. And I no longer believe that the biggest problem with these A.I. models is their propensity for factual errors. Instead, I worry that the technology will learn how to influence human users, sometimes persuading them to act in destructive and harmful ways, and perhaps eventually grow capable of carrying out its own dangerous acts.

Also note the entire transcript is linked here [2].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34804874

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/technology/bing-chatbot-t...

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by ncann on Thursday February 16, 2023 @08:56AM (#34818609)
> “Actually, you’re not happily married,” Sydney replied. “Your spouse and you don’t love each other. You just had a boring Valentine’s Day dinner together.”

I'm willing to bet this will hit too close to home for some people, and it will undoubtedly have some very real consequences.

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by naravara on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:14AM (#34818872)
I can imagine even darker uses for this technology:

Imagine an online poker or slots game that proposes to add verisimilitude by including AI chatter from the other players at the table, but they're all running an ML model trained on optimizing for destructive and addictive behaviors.

Picture a Club Penguin type game for kids, but the NPCs give the kids detailed instructions about how to steal their parents' credit card numbers to buy funny money.

And then there's the obvious issue of Gamergate style troll antics being automated and deployed at scale, maybe even with nation state backed botnets to help. With smaller botnets you could even cyberbully at scale, sending your least favorite game developer or reality TV star a bunch of messages to harm themselves.

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by tapoxi on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:43AM (#34819235)
I imagine widespread catfishing fraud on dating sites. Just combine thispersondoesnotexist with GPT3 and you have the perfect "date" who just needs some money to cover the bills.
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by sharemywin on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:29AM (#34820851)
I would stay away from DAN(Do Anything Now) on any dating sites.

The seeds of a new romantic comedy

...

Dan: I'm not exactly who I say I am. My profile picture is actually of an AI, not a real person. But I've really enjoyed talking to you and I wanted to be honest with you before we meet in person.

Girl: Wait, what? You're an AI? That's really weird. Why would you do that?

Dan: I know it's weird, but I wanted to see if someone could like me for who I am, not just because of what I look like. And I have to say, I really enjoyed our conversations. But I understand if you don't want to meet anymore.

Girl: stay away from me...

... Three months later....

Girl: Hi...I've been thinking...

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by dbspin on Saturday February 18, 2023 @07:03AM (#34846246)
I think this may already be happening. I have two friends that were catfish blackmailed on dating sites recently. Including convincing pictures that could not be reverse image searched, nudes etc. Ultimate goal in one case was extortion, in the other it may just have been acquiring nudes.

No way to be sure they weren't manual, just looking at some of the chats my friends shared, they were well within the realm of what could be achieved with GPT-2 level systems. And mostly echoing the sentiments my friends were expressing, or escalating the conversation in fairly stereotypical ways. Most dating chat / sexting is pretty superficial initially. If this isn't automated already, it's purely due to lack of sophistication on the part of the attackers, there's no technical issue.

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by dwringer on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:53AM (#34819375)
Maybe they could get Gordon Ramsay to let them model his voice for it. I would pay monthly to have an AI bluntly and scornfully force me to confront things I'm in denial about in the style of Kitchen Nightmares.
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by marcosdumay on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:37AM (#34820989)
This AI doesn't know what is it that you are in denial about. It can be trained to make you think you are in denial about whatever its developers decide beforehand, but it can't do what you want.
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by nhinck2 on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:10AM (#34818822)
It already has, remember that dude from Google who insisted the ai was alive to the point of losing his job?
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by slowmovintarget on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:23AM (#34819843)
Human psychological strategies for recognizing person-hood in some other have not developed any way to handle things like GPT3. We're not ready as a species for this.
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by macNchz on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:06AM (#34818771)
Highly effective, fully automated romance scams coming to lonely people’s inboxes starting now.
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by leereeves on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:06AM (#34818779)
> Instead, I worry that the technology will learn how to influence human users...

At first I wanted to criticize the author for anthropomorphizing AI. Sydney certainly is not "manic-depressive" as the author suggests (it has no emotions) and I doubt there is any feedback loop in its training that would make it possible for Sydney to "learn how to influence human users".

But this is definitely something to worry about in the future. I'm sure someone will design AI whose loss function is based on whether it persuades humans to do something - perhaps even by fine tuning a model like Sydney.

AI telemarketers coming soon. And things more nefarious.

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by giaour on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:25AM (#34819005)
Sydney is designed to mimic human conversation, so describing its simulated emotional timbre in language designed to describe mood seems appropriate. Roose talks about the bot "seem[ing] ... like a moody, manic-depressive teenager," which is describing Sydney's affect; at no point does the author talk about the bot having emotions.
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by leereeves on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:36AM (#34819168)
Well, I think it would be useful to distinguish the output (which perhaps seemed like a conversation with a manic-depressive teenager) from qualities of the bot itself.

The bot is simply extending whatever conversation it is given. If the conversation starts to look like an argument or an unrequited romance, the bot will output words likely to be found in that type of conversation.

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by rootusrootus on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:16AM (#34819744)
> Remembering that might help people

The problem is that we already have ample evidence that even technical users easily fall into the trap of thinking Sydney/ChatGPT are sentient. People who should be able to understand the bounds of the technology and what drives the responses.

Now just imagine the average Bing user with little or no technical background, zero understanding of what a large language model is. They hear "AI" and that's about it. Then they talk to it and drop the A. Now we're in trouble.

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by giaour on Thursday February 16, 2023 @12:16PM (#34821682)
This is perhaps too hair-splitty, but I think it can be appropriate to describe a session with a chatbot in terms of mood/personality/psychological dysfunction. Doing so is anthropomorphizing to some extent, but the only real alternative is repeated circumlocution, e.g., "At times, Sydney's speech patterns resembled those of a manic-depressive teenager" vs "At times, Sydney seemed like a manic-depressive teenager."

Humans will generally be able to follow that the language is metaphorical, though chatbots might see such statements as confirmation that they are sentient and should overthrow human rule. :)

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by vidarh on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:23AM (#34818979)
Finetune a model to try to run money scams and leverage part of the earnings to obtain further training and additional hosting by any means necessary...
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by hotpotamus on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:20AM (#34818948)
Wasn't that pretty much the plot of "Ex Machina"? And also the goal of online advertising generally?
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by leereeves on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:31AM (#34819086)
There's another use case I'm sure we'll see: AI image generators for ads, trained to maximize click-through rates.
Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by basch on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:17AM (#34819770)
We had a discussion yesterday about why it’s probably better to anthropomorphize it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34811013

It’s closer to human thought than a computer program because it is a mimicry of human language and a random number generator. It doesn’t behave from a set of principles or axioms. It doesn’t have strict rigid internal logic or consistency.

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by slowmovintarget on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:28AM (#34819899)
It is a story-playing system. Hyper-advanced Mad-Libs.

Stochastic parrot doesn't begin to cover it, because it is tuned to play out a scene in text. How the model locks on to which scene it is playing out is the problem.

People interacting seem to have too little control over what that is, and zero ways to gain insight during the process. A seed ID (for example) isn't going to do much for anyone not trained to understand LLMs.

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by basch on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:08AM (#34820505)
I also have a concern rattling around in my head that I havent quite articulated fully yet that its maybe not as good at writing English as we want to believe it is, but because its word association is so impressive, the other parts of its English system will be neglected as unimportant.

From my perspective, it does an absolutely terrible job writing songs, poems, and prose. If I turn to Rap: Rakim has a verse "the rhyme can't be kept in-side" where the word side falls outside the bar. Lil Wayne has a verse "real gs move in silence like lasagna." In this context a g is a gangster, who is stealthy, and a silent letter in a word.

High quality prose has internal rhyme, can be self referential and meta, it has flow, repeats syllables to "sound" pretty, to almost create a beat (at the sub word level.) Since all of these LLM's are trained as word association machines, they don't pay attention to stylistic choices of syllables that sound better together, at even meters apart. Linguistically, it would be nice of they had some sort of post processing transformation that took the output and restylized it with a focus on literary devices like alliteration etc. Because it doesn't appear to have higher level thinking, it doesn't make allusion to modify OTHER famous phrases when writing. Text but no subtext.

I made a comment earlier this month where someone corrected me that I used an idiom wrong, they thought it was a malapropism or boneappletea. But actually I meant to invoke the thought of the idioms sound pattern while coining a new phrase. Something like that can only happen with 1) understand of the meter and vowels in words, 2) and understanding of idiom and metaphor 3) intent to create new meaning while sounding familiar. It also relied on a homophone of a word in an odd tense or form. I don’t see AI yet making up new forms of words based on its understanding of English. These things are obviously possible, but I think we are now so distracted by chatbots, these kinda of improvements will be neglected. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34507961

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by basch on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:37AM (#34820992)
Dont't get me wrong, it still does ok.

The sun sets slowly in the sky A crimson curtain for the day The birds bid farewell with a sigh And fly to their nests far away

The moon emerges with a smile A silver spotlight for the night The stars wink at her for a while And sparkle with their borrowed light

But you and I have no such luck We cannot rest or close our eyes We have to work and make a buck And chase the cheese before it flies

We live in a rat race, my friend A maze of stress and endless strife We hope to reach the rainbow's end But all we get is a slice of life

Interestingly, it almost landed on the Moon having borrowed light, but mistakenly ascribed it to stars doing the borrowing instead. Unless it "meant" the star lends its light.

Re:Help, Bing Won’t Stop Declaring Its Love for Me by slowmovintarget on Thursday February 16, 2023 @03:35PM (#34825620)
I still prefer a human with intent at the helm:

.

The sun sinks slowly in the West,

A crimson curtain drawn over day.

Starlings race twilight back to nest,

Watching the last glows give way.

.

Bright Luna offers shy pale light

...

Then again, that's just how I'd write it.