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Re:The maze is in the mouse – What ails Google. And how it c... by sanderjd on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @02:58PM (#34809740)
I'm going to call out one specific point I disagree with, which I'm curious whether others will or won't agree with me on: google3 and the associated set of internal tools actually are better than what exists "in the real world".

I went from startup world (mostly rails and frontend frameworks of the early teens) early in my career to google3 for about half a decade to the whole suite of public cloud stuff starting about a year ago and I really miss google's internal tooling.

It's not at all that any given component is much or at all better than any given public competitor. Indeed I think the article is right that on an individual component basis there are strong competitors to everything google has internally. But taken as a whole, I found it much easier to figure out what tool to use for a given job and get it working well for my task within google than it is with all the public tools. But it's an integration and analysis paralysis / paradox of choice and sales cycle problem, rather than a technical problem.

Do I go with a fully managed service or self-host? How well does the self-hosting work with my infrastructure? What about cost comparisons? Do these three tools work together at all? Do they support my particular sso setup? It's just so much crap before even getting to the point where the technical capabilities are important. And it is either prohibitively time consuming or just actually impossible to do any sort of objective analysis of different options, so everyone just guesses and cargo cults. "This seems to have the most mindshare in the community."

I experienced variants of some of these same problems with google internal tools, but there were easy and good answers to a large enough set of the questions that it always seemed a lot easier to get an answer and move on.

Re:The maze is in the mouse – What ails Google. And how it c... by dastbe on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @10:34PM (#34814661)
this is something i've really felt moving from aws to a company that isn't a cloud provider. even when most aws services are third best at best in their category, you still get the following benefits

1. everything works reasonably well together and share the same cross cutting primitives (IAM, VPC).

2. you have service teams and support all under the same roof, so you get deep access to them and can get them to work together on solving your problem

3. you do not get a choice in the matter, so you do not have to waste time deliberating the choice. you also get rock bottom prices guaranteed.

this all made things much simpler to work with, much simpler to debug/get support for, and removed a lot of the churn we would've had if we had to re-evaluate services every N years.

Re:The maze is in the mouse – What ails Google. And how it c... by ricardou on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @11:08PM (#34814882)
Do you think this is more a reflection on the fact that the more mature company has already made these decisions for you vs the other company having to still figure out this stuff? Your point isn't really saying much about que quality of the internal tools vs the external ones. I see your comparison more along the lines of a company that's already decided how they'll tackle the problem and answered all your questions vs one that's starting to.
Re:The maze is in the mouse – What ails Google. And how it c... by sanderjd on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @11:23PM (#34814994)
Absolutely yes. I actually meant to make the point that I think all mature companies have this "a small set of things that work together" to some extent or another! So yeah, maybe the point still stands that this is not a point of unique exceptionalism for google. Though I haven't worked at any other large mature companies so I can't compare their tooling to google's.
Re:The maze is in the mouse – What ails Google. And how it c... by amf12 on Thursday February 16, 2023 @02:25PM (#34824363)
> Do you think this is more a reflection on the fact that the more mature company has already made these decisions for you

Not really. There are many competing tools internally too, and you have to choose the appropriate one. One thing that's common though is they all integrate with everything else - monitoring, building, launching, codebase, documentation, etc. This makes it much easier to just make it work.

Re:The maze is in the mouse – What ails Google. And how it c... by sanderjd on Friday February 17, 2023 @01:27PM (#34838413)
But the reason that integration works is because at that lowest layer there is pretty much exactly one option for everything, ie. for logging, monitoring, building, launching, deployment and configuration, front-end / load-balancing, storage, code location, service interface, documentation, authn and authz, etc. etc. Sure there are competing tools on the boundaries, but there's so much you can count on existing everywhere.
Re:The maze is in the mouse – What ails Google. And how it c... by amf12 on Friday February 17, 2023 @11:00PM (#34843759)
Sure, but I'd say the benefits outweigh the lack of choice about the infrastructure.

I frequently talk to my friend about work, and I realize most of the problems they face - even at good tech companies - are something I never have to think about. I don't mean the actually difficult problems which any Software Engineer would love to tackle, but the grungy ones.