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Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by GalenErso on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:15PM (#34799611)
On one hand, as a heterosexual, white, culturally Christian and conventionally attractive man raised in a middle class neighborhood, I've never been the victim of hateful speech. I cannot fully relate to those who have been. My family, friends, and coworkers are all from similarly conventional backgrounds. I am thus privileged, in a certain way.

On the other hand, I cannot help but think that too many people have become soft these days. I am not old enough to remember a time before the late 90s, nor do I glorify a forgotten "Golden Age". But, when I occasionally watch old movies, documentaries, and TV shows, it is clear that people used to have a much thicker skin. This is not to say that I believe that free speech shouldn't have reasonable constraints. I am not denying the emotional impact that words can have on people, or the potential unhealthiness of excess emotional fortitude. But it is to say that it would be misguided and, in my humble opinion, a disservice to future generations to envelop them in a sanitized cocoon of sterile experiences, where they cannot be uncomfortable. Because the real world is full of colorful characters, and surprises, generally speaking. Like an immune system that grows weaker when it goes too long without exposure to viruses and bacteria, I believe that a person's character can and in a certain measure must be allowed to be steeled and sharpened by the unexpected, the random, and, perhaps, the uncomfortable.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by swatcoder on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:27PM (#34799718)
Individuals, generations, and societies develop ideas and need to test them out for themselves. Over the second half of the twentieth century, in the shadow of a society that waged two world wars, annihilated cities with fire bombings and nuclear weapons, and staged a globally existential Cold War between "good" and "evil", the "peace and love" hypothesis felt really enticing: maybe we could all just be nice to each other and make sure everybody had what they needed and everything would be better. Gen X and Millenial kids learned it from our parents, got support from hippie and urban boomers in institutionalizing it through politics, science, and medicine and embedded that idea deeply in the children that came behind us.

Now, we're working through the experiment. We'll see how it goes. It's not a sure thing.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by trpv on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:02PM (#34799955)
Seems like you think you’re exempt from being a victim of hate because of your demographics, and likewise that others of certain demographics, whatever they may be, are implicitly victims of it.

There are white, heterosexual, etc (the list of ways people say they privileged is ever expanding lol) men who have been on the receiving end of hateful speech because they are white, heterosexual, etc. and there are black or gay men who have never been personally attacked based on that identity.

But yeah, shielding yourself from speech or anything else you may find uncomfortable may make you feel better in the moment, but hurts you in the long term

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by mathieuh on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:26AM (#34800428)
I think there is an inevitable difference between someone who is part of the majority experiencing hate speech and someone who is not. I’m white, I don’t even know what a racial term for a white person would be, but if someone called me something offensive it would probably make me feel bad but then I would get on with my day. I haven’t lived with constant background racism. No one has ever abused me simply for being white.

I honestly don’t believe it’s possible to be racist against the majority in the same way as against the minority.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by ipaddr on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:53AM (#34800869)
Is it okay to go to a black majority country in Africa and be racist because you are a minority? That logic doesn't fly.. why would we accept that here either?
Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by mathieuh on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @02:56AM (#34801208)
I'm not saying it's OK, it's never OK. I'm saying the effects are different
Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by leereeves on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @03:30AM (#34801399)
Of course the effects are different for people who are able to escape the situation unharmed and go on with their lives.

But not every white person who encounters racism is able to escape unharmed. Some have been physically hurt or even killed in racist attacks. Some are harassed at school or work or in their neighborhoods and can't afford to escape.

Their situation isn't different from other victims of racism simply because you haven't experienced it and don't believe it's possible.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by hackerlight on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:55AM (#34801854)
It's generally true though, and that's the important point you're not conceding.

If you're a Uyghur Muslim in China, racism against you is going to be far more harmful than the reverse -- in the typical case. That's just fact and stems from the demographic numbers differences.

Ditto with White people in the West but perhaps less stark since Whites tend to be a smaller majority.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by leereeves on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @05:25AM (#34802019)
> It's generally true though

I agree, but that isn't what mathieuh wrote. I'd say racism against white people is less common and generally less impactful, but it isn't impossible or inevitably different.

> since Whites tend to be a smaller majority

You're underestimating the diversity of the United States. There are many places in the US where white non-Hispanic Christians are a minority. In fact, white non-Hispanic (but including Jewish and Muslim) people are only 60% of the population of the US.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by hackerlight on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @03:21PM (#34809993)
Yeah the harm is going to vary by location and situation within the US, but it also goes beyond just demographics. It's also about the social constructs operating in a culture. A White minority in Singapore doesn't face much racism and the racism they do face isn't damaging because they have a wealthy, powerful community or embassy to fall back on. But if you're a Bangladeshi worker with no rights the situation is totally different almost 100% of the time with no exceptions, you could get beaten up by your boss and literally nobody cares. The locals and police doesn't care, there is no embassy or media ecosystem of a rich country to care, and so on. It's direct racism and the end products of racism top to bottom.

This is what people are trying to point out when they talk about Whiteness. They're talking about the construct that it's good and default to be White (or Han if you live in China or Japanese if you live in Japan) and this construct can even hold true in places with a White minority (e.g., how White people get treated in Singapore, or colorism culture in non-White countries).

That having being said, White people as individuals are empirically the least racist people. That's just empirically true according to survey data. But this is largely besides the point that was being made above.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by litiholofan on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @03:26AM (#34801376)
You are a global minority.
Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by tonfreed on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @03:49AM (#34801497)
This is a very western idea. I've spent significant amounts of time in other countries and there's no such sensitivity for "the outsider" like there is in European countries or the wider Anglosphere.

It's also a very recent phenomenon, and the most recent wave seems to be pushed by elites in society that don't seem to realize the average working class citizen has more contact with minorities than they ever will.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by jay-barronville on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:19PM (#34800047)
Well, I’m a black man and I agree with you.

It seems everyone nowadays wants to be coddled and there’s just this overwhelming sense of entitlement in the air.

The real world isn’t perfect; in fact, it’s quite chaotic, just how it’s supposed to be. A lot of folks seem to only want to look at the world from a utopian lens. The elephant in the room is, your utopia isn’t my utopia. Put differently, our differences create the very imperfections that actually make our world interesting and keep society functioning as it should.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by PuppyTailWags on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:29PM (#34800112)
I'm very confused by this response to a court blocking describing what adult police officers can say on social media. It seems very irrelevant.
Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by boomboomsubban on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:45PM (#34800198)
>But it is to say that it would be misguided and, in my humble opinion, a disservice to future generations to envelop them in a sanitized cocoon of sterile experiences,

By your own admission, you've lived in a sanitized cocoon where you've never been the victim of hateful speech. Do you think you're weaker than others who have experience in that area? Would a generation full of people like you be a disservice?

I don't really think state censorship is the answer, but I find your point of view contradictory.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by kube-system on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:38AM (#34800491)
The “thicker skin” you speak of has multiple dimensions. Yes, people absolutely used to turn the other cheek more often about social issues that we now discuss. But it’s not because those issues were merely political in nature or because people were more accepting of insult. It’s because people had no other choice. Belonging to a marginalized group today is way safer than it was in the middle of the previous century.

In the middle of the last century, people were murdered for interracial relationships, beaten and imprisoned for being gay, institutionalized for being different. Undoubtedly, people wanted to avoid these things.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by tdehnel on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:13AM (#34800653)
The privilege disclaimer is absolutely unnecessary, and I agree with your point.
Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by fzeroracer on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:25AM (#34801680)
As another poster said it's incredibly ironic that you claim a person's character should be sharpened by uncomfortable and random situations while also admitting you've never been in such a situation.
Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by hackerlight on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:58AM (#34801867)
It's bullshit, too. Being on the receiving end of racism is much like being on the receiving end of bullying. It's a feeling of social alienation and is definitely not character building.
Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by hackerlight on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:38AM (#34801755)
You're missing the point and have failed to steel man those who you're critiquing.

It's not about hurt feelings ("emotional impact"). It's about preventing the well-trodden causal pathway to ethnic cleansings and genocides.

Re:Court Blocks N.Y. Law Mandating “Hateful Conduct” Policie... by brg on Thursday February 16, 2023 @12:23AM (#34815379)
I would ask you to consider that you have absolutely been the victim of hate speech. However you have not recognized it because your view of the world is one where you have personal agency, and the speech has been interpreted as a personal criticism instead of one of a group in which you identify.