News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by LatteLazy on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:18AM (#34787534)
In almost the entire EU and especially here in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less. As someone with decent insulation and solar panels etc, this was exactly the time those investments should have paid off and for other people to be left behind because they refused to take basic measures. Instead they've been bailed out and progress has been put off for another decade. And this sums up the whole of our green policy for the last 40years: we absolutely must do something, unless people don't want to, which they don't.
Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by LemmyInThePub on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:30AM (#34787591)
> in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less

No.

The government stepped in because poor people (and many not so poor) could not afford to heat their homes over winter.

It is (was) an emergency measure. The transition to green energy is well under way in the UK, regardless of temporary subsidies.

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by LatteLazy on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:45AM (#34787674)
In the UK, they capped the price of energy per kWh. So they bailed out everyone, rich, poor and middle alike. And the more energy you used, the more support you got. So richer and more wasteful households got the MOST support.

Saying "but the poor" while throwing money at the rich is pretty self-contradictory IMHO. If they'd at least made cash payments, even if it was the same per household, it would at least have incentivised people not to waste energy. But no, it specifically rewarded people for increasing their consumption.

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by LemmyInThePub on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @06:30AM (#34787954)
> So richer and more wasteful households got the MOST support.

I do agree the implementation of the scheme was very poor.....

....the reasons for which are down to our current governments unfortunate mix of poor competence and fruity ideology (thank $Deity Liss Truss wasn't around for too long!)

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by butler14 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:53AM (#34787718)
I agree that the incentives were off on paper

But is there any evidence that's been the case, that people have increased their consumption?

Anecdotally, I can't think of anyone I know that hasn't actively reduced their usage

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by talideon on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @06:48AM (#34788083)
This is partially a consequence of the bonkers way in which electricity is priced in the UK: it's costed based off of fuel prices rather than the cost per unit to produce the power in question. This leads to situations where the UK might have plenty of electricity being produced by means other than natural gas (such as renewables), but it's still all costed as if it were produced by natural gas.

And yes, some kind of flat cash payment that advantaged poorer people would've been better. And much as I loathe the Tories, I doubt they took the route they did because they wanted to give money to the rich in this case, or even encourage electricity usage growth. Assume incompetence before malice: they needed to do something to staunch the flow, and a price cap per unit was something they could do there and then without engaging extra bureaucracy, which a cash payment would've required.

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by ZeroGravitas on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @11:35AM (#34791857)
The energy cap was already in place in the UK. It contributed to the problems as the price of gas spiked.

It's a bad policy, but it's from the same government that paid people to eat out at restaurants during a viral pandemic, rather than a specific response to the war.

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by TheSpiceIsLife on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:40AM (#34787644)
Do you mean to imply that you're ok with UK citizens freezing to death because they can't afford insulation and heating?
Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by LatteLazy on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:46AM (#34787678)
Yes, I am personally advocating genocide which is the only alternative to paying people to waste energy...
Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by ben_w on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:44AM (#34787670)
Vime's boots.

I'm not sure about here in the EU, but the UK has a cost of living crisis such that millions[0][1][2] are regularly skipping meals. People in that situation don't have the spare money be able to install PV or upgrade their insulation.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/one-four-britons-skip-meals...

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jan/26/uk-student...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/18/millions-for...

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by stef25 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @06:10AM (#34787827)
It's unfathomable to me that people in the UK are skipping meals. If you buy rice & beans in bulk you can fill your belly for less than £1 I'm sure. Quick look on the Tesco website

- bread: £0.39 £0.05/100g

- chicken soup: £0.60 £0.15/100g

- 1KG rice: £0.48 £0.48/kg

- Baked beans: £0.50 £1.19/kg

- Kidney beans: £0.59 £2.46/kg DR.WT

- Tinned mackerel: £0.85 £0.97/100g DR.WT (sardines are half the price)

- Eggs: £0.20 / piece

- 500g pasta: £0.41 £0.82/kg

People are probably just used to eating take-out or buying £8 microwave dishes for the whole family and don't know how to cook on a budget.

If you're really desperate, markets usually put aside vegetables that are too old to sell but you can make soup out of them no problem.

This all isn't very appealing or even healthy (although compared to microwave or takeout ...), but at least you're not going hungry.

If you can only send your kid to school with 1 slice of bread, you have other problems than money.

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by pjc50 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @06:35AM (#34787994)
Someone posts this comment every time the subject is mentioned; someone else posts the Orwell essay from the 1940s which replies to the exact same discussion; and yet the kids are still turning up hungry. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/03/expand-fre...
Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by LemmyInThePub on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @06:36AM (#34788008)
> It's unfathomable to me that people in the UK are skipping meals.

It is when you consider many people simply don't know how to cook simple, healthy food. Our schools no longer teach basic cookery (and many parents neglected to pass on the skills).

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by fknorangesite on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @12:05PM (#34792365)
> and many parents neglected to pass on the skills

Or more likely were never taught those skills, either.

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by ben_w on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @07:24AM (#34788354)
Regarding supermarket prices, I've done the same calculations and even made a game of it when I was at university[0].

Per calorie you can do similar with value brand digestives.

However, so far as I can see in the reporting, many people in the UK really are that short of money — It's not just not being able to budget right (dyscalculia is a thing, but not common enough to explain current observations by itself).

I also think that, just as pubs are required to supply free water on request[1], they should also supply free unflavoured lentils-and-rice on request, given how cheap it is.

> If you can only send your kid to school with 1 slice of bread, you have other problems than money.

They do indeed have other problems than money — money is also a problem, just not the only one.

I was going to add that a significant number can't even manage as much as one slice of bread, however all the news I can find specifically about schoolkids skipping specifically breakfast (and not the generic mass hunger I previously gave examples of) turned out to be reporting the same two studies by two different foods companies so I don't trust that factoid.

[0] 20 years ago: breakfast was Quaker oats with skimmed UHT, sugar, and whichever dried sultanas or raisins was cheaper; skipped lunch; dinner was Chinese instant noodles from Lidl at 13p per pack; total daily was about 50p

[1] I'm told the law is more complicated, but in practice this is observed

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by throwaway4aday on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @08:52AM (#34789220)
It's possible to have 0 dollars after paying other bills before your next grocery shopping trip so no matter how cost effective these things are they won't help. Once you're behind on rent or mortgage and gas bills and electricity bills and loan payments and credit card debt is racking up 20% interest and you're using every cent you have to stop those creditors from coming after you your only option is to cut down on other costs, even if they are relatively important, like food.
Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by sw104 on Friday February 17, 2023 @09:57AM (#34835364)
In my experience, the average British person has no idea how to cook a square healthy meal that is also appetising enough for them to choose it over other easier options. Cooking is taught poorly (if at all) in schools and at home.

This isn't about money. We have 64% of the adult population overweight and obese, 22% at age 5, and 37% at age 10. All those numbers are growing.

The excuse often brought up is that it's "expensive to eat healthy". Absolute bollocks. It's far more expensive to eat ready-meals, order takeaway, and dine out than to buy ingredients and cook.

For snacks, a banana costs £0.15 and fills you up for longer than a £1.00 chocolate bar. But people want the chocolate bar!

I've lived in a city centre apartment block for the last few years. The frequency with which I've seen the people around me having McDonalds, burgers, pizzas, and other oily, salty, high fat, high calorie food delivered shocks me. For some people, it's upwards of 5 times a week!

If you go to a "local" or "express" supermarket, microwavable ready meals and junk food represent most of the aisles, and when you take a glance at the shopper next to you, they are buying mostly junk and inconvenience food.

If you go to a supermarket after school closing time, you'll see tens/hundreds of kids buying energy drinks (despite the age limit), multipacks of chocolates, biscuits, sweets, crisps, 1 litre bottles of pop. Evidently, they have the money for it (from their parents). University students across the country keep fast food and takeaways in business via their student loans and grants.

When people here do cook, it's:-

1) Stir fry 2) Spaghetti Bolognese 3) Pasta and sauce dish 4) Something on toast/jacket potato

Every meal that gets microwaved in my office for lunch is one of these 4 things. Basically just throwing a bunch of stuff in a wok and mixing for 10 minutes.

This is of course all anecdotal, but it's plain as day that it's about personal choice for many people, and not money. Our country has a serious problem with food and alcohol addiction, and an extreme aversion to exercise. Most people would wipe out their life savings/all of their income to eat slop as much as possible, at the detriment to their finances and health.

Every stage of British life, from infanthood, primary and high school, to university and beyond prepare the population for gorging on high energy, salty, oily junk food.

We will easily hit 75% overweight/obesity by the end of the decade.

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by butler14 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:47AM (#34787679)
This is a particularly cynical view from someone privileged enough to be able to afford solar panels.

I have panels too. But I also have friends that can't pay their energy bill this month.

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by LatteLazy on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @06:19AM (#34787886)
My solar panels were free, I got them in 2021. The local council installed them. They came the same week I applied and were really pleased to do it because they were under pressure as they're meant to get X household a month to hit an annual target and were badly behind.

https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/news/2021/free-solar-panels-barking-...

(there is now an income limit which I disagree with but whatever...)

I told my neighbours and enthusiastically recommended them.

They "weren't sure". Here we are 2 years later and they're concerned about energy prices.

The problem here is not and should not be money. I'd be all for free insulation, solar panels, better boilers, etc. And we rightly already do all that.

Then people say no because doing things is scary and why bother when you'll just be bailed out? That's the "small-c conservative" mindset we need to get out of. It causes 101 other social issues too but now I am just ranting.

I hope the link above inspires others to get them too

Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by throwaway4aday on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @08:55AM (#34789259)
Is your house running off of the power the panels output or are you being paid for the power they generate?
Re:War and subsidies have turbocharged the green transition by LatteLazy on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:36AM (#34789882)
If there is excess it goes back to the grid. I looked at a battery pack etc (more for reliability than profit...) but it didn't seem economically viable...