News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by Scoundreller on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:48AM (#34741198)
> returned from ag use for ecological restoration.

We don’t really do that. If anything, the opposite now that the land yields more value.

Largely we just use the excess to feed animals (ie: 90% energy loss) or ethanol/biodiesel (ie: using land as a 2-3% efficient solar panel, along with lots of inputs).

Something like 75% of US corn goes into the above 2.

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by epistasis on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:17AM (#34741685)
We do that, and actually pay farmers to keep land fallow in some cases.

We must have this high leve of productivity before it's even a possibility, but once it's a possibility we can expand its use.

The current economic system is changeable, one ag technology allows us to.

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by hinkley on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:46PM (#34747044)
One of the goals of regenerative agriculture is to get most of the benefits of fallow land while still using the land.

From that standpoint, the math about "but you get less yield" is a bit of a non sequitur. I'm changing the divisor in the equation, which is usually how bad logic slips into an argument predicated on numbers.

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by nine_k on Saturday February 11, 2023 @01:31AM (#34750117)
Crops on the field are not yet the harvest; grain in a granary is. Harvesting is a very intense process, because the crops need to be collected in the few days when they are best quality and haven't fallen off. Harvesting often occurs around the clock in the season, using monstrous machines.

The lower the yield per unit area, the longer it takes to harvest all, the more fuel is spent, and the higher the risk to lose a part of the crops due to harvesting them untimely. Lower-density crops are noticeably more expensive as a result.

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by hinkley on Saturday February 11, 2023 @01:46PM (#34755011)
We are collecting and redistributing grain at a discount and using it for anything we can think of. Highly processed food, grain alcohol, “corn fed beef” which is likely a dietary disaster for humans.

Remember, ethanol in gasoline is predominantly about lifting demand for corn in order to court votes from the upper Midwest. We don’t actually need to use corn for fuel.

You can feed pigs on grain and nuts that fell before or after harvest. Ten pigs are pretty big harvesting machine. Birds as well.

Mark Shepard is claiming about twice the yield per acre of conventional farms. He’s doing this by getting less than half a yield of four+ crops on the same land. The trick to being Mark Shepard is putting enough time and energy into your job to understand a dozen crops instead of hyper specializing in two, as if your neighbors aren’t doing the exact some thing.

Now at the end of the day, we still need some staple crops around. That we can stockpile grain for three years and canned food for 18-36 months helps level out boom and bust cycles in agriculture. Good year? Rent warehouse space. Bad year? Let the warehouse lapse, or do invasive maintenance.

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by epistasis on Saturday February 11, 2023 @09:55AM (#34752811)
Regenerative agriculture is still a big step down from returning the land to natural ecosystems. Quantifying how big that step is, to the point of being able to pick a point in the pareto curve, is a big political decision. There's definitely a place for a lot lots of regenerative agriculture, but it's one part of a solution.
Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by tharkun__ on Friday February 10, 2023 @07:02PM (#34747847)
I'd totally agree w/ this from the "grow corn and then feed cows with it" standpoint.

This is doubly bad if you're displacing natural grasslands and grassland grazing with this. I.e. plant corn on your previous grasslands and cram the cows into some barn.

This came through HN just recently. Another way to do the same though is to go back to what the big buffalo herds were naturally doing. I.e. let your cows actually "trample and shit on the land" and that's what actually keeps it fertile. Then you harvest the cows for meat while keeping their number stable.

Win - win

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by Scoundreller on Friday February 10, 2023 @07:53PM (#34748274)
Kinda what Iceland does. Multiple sheep per person. They tag 'em, let 'em roam free and collect them later in the year.

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/iceland-welcomes-tourists-t...

Same with many random islands explorers came across: they'd leave some livestock so when they came back later they'd have some dense and fresh food ready to harvest.

Didn't work so well in Australia. And probably any of the islands most likely.

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by bombolo on Friday February 10, 2023 @08:26PM (#34748542)
The reason why iceland can't have trees: sheep owners
Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by nine_k on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:55PM (#34749723)
Iceland actually has some trees. But in that climate they don't grow very tall.

Also, much of Iceland is a desert of lava, glass, and black sand; some other parts are covered with ice. Not many plants can survive in such a landscape, and those which do are usually not trees.

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by cognaitiv on Saturday February 11, 2023 @09:31AM (#34752584)
Deforestation in Iceland predates industrialization.

“Deforestation is a major issue that is highly prevalent throughout the world. The country of Iceland has been hit especially hard by this catastrophe. A nation that once had forests covering 40 percent of its countryside began to lose its tree cover, when the Vikings arrived in the 9th century. By the early 20th century, however, this tree cover was reduced to just 0.5 percent. To this day, the government of Iceland is working towards reviving the lost forests and restoring the land, in order to work towards a more sustainable future. This problem relates to the course of Sustainability for the Common Good because it covers the environmental issue of deforestation as well as the solutions that are being put into play to make the land more sustainable”

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/a4e20c53ee77427cb587cb7...

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by elcritch on Saturday February 11, 2023 @01:05PM (#34754637)
Does that account for climate changes? IIRC, there was a warmer period around the time the vikings arrived?
Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by omeid2 on Saturday February 11, 2023 @01:59AM (#34750226)
Australia is one of the largest meat exporters.
Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by jabl on Saturday February 11, 2023 @08:40AM (#34752228)
The plague of sheep, camels, cows, rabbits, cane toads and whatnot isn't such a good deal for the indigenous flora and fauna.
Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by omeid2 on Sunday February 12, 2023 @01:54AM (#34760563)
It is not that bad, except for the birds with introduction of cats.
Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by supportlocal4h on Saturday February 11, 2023 @08:10AM (#34752038)
Then you have a dispute about who owns the 10000s of acres and who to pay for the grazing rights. And who is responsible for maintaining all that range? And can somebody be tried twice for a mistake in their management of open range? Then people with and without badges show up with guns.

Ok, that hardly ever happens.

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by tharkun__ on Saturday February 11, 2023 @08:32PM (#34758519)
I'm not sure I understand. Nowhere did I say anything about actually putting bison back out there in the way the settlers found things when they moved in.

But instead of planting lots of corn and feeding your barn full of cattle with it you can also own that same piece of land and sustainably make grass fed beef. Said beef would keep your soil fertile by trampling and shitting on it.

In addition to this your vet and meds bills will be lower to non existent because you don't get the same disease issues you get in cramped barn quarters.

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by supportlocal4h on Sunday February 19, 2023 @05:29PM (#34862521)
In the USA, the BLM administers some 18000 permits to farmers and ranchers who pay them grazing fees.[0] Then cattle wander on that range exactly as you propose.

The BLM also employs snipers and gunmen to intimidate ranchers who don't pay the grazing fees. Some ranchers respond with impromptu militias.

Sometimes things escalate to the point that goverment agents kill protesters. Sometimes law enforcement officers get assassinated.

But mostly, cattle graze as you suggest and the BLM collects grazing fees.

[0] https://www.blm.gov/programs/natural-resources/rangelands-an...

Re:“Open Source” Seeds Loosen Big Ag’s Grip on Farmers by skzv on Saturday February 11, 2023 @01:27AM (#34750095)
Indeed. Improvements in efficiency often have the paradoxical effect of increasing resource utilization. This is known as Jevons Paradox [0], and it's been observed in many real world situations.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox