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Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by BoorishBears on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:36PM (#34731873)
Tesla is damaging the idea of self-driving cars in spite of the media, not because of it.

Self driving cars were billed as the cool new thing. Then Tesla started charging people for "Full Self Driving" with a system that regresses from basic LKA that was shipping in the mid 2000s in terms of safety by using public roads for beta testing an intentionally hamstrung* L2-billed-as-L5 driving stack.

It's frustrating to watch as someone working in the AV space, and it's silly to act like this one case was isolated enough that the fact it was wrong changes any of that reality. We know Tesla's stack has killed people: it got normalized when the first few times it happened they got away with it by victim blaming. By 2021 it was already accepted, this incident was already business as usual.

*humans just need eyes so self driving cars just need cameras

Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by kmeisthax on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:55PM (#34732115)
The thing is, I would have thought that Tesla's stance on repairability alone would have made their brand radioactive to the average Hacker News commenter, way before the Pedo Guy accusations or Elon Musk burning a bunch of money to make Twitter worse. Tesla is everything we claim to hate about Apple.
Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by a4isms on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:10PM (#34732336)
If Apple owned Tesla, there wouldn't be enough room in this comment to list all the reasons HN would hate it:

1. What do you mean, the OS and all its software is proprietary? Why can't I sideload my own fart app?

2. Highest margins in the industry? No we won't praise their business genius, we'll complain that they're charging a Tesla Fanboi Tax.

3. Like you said, RIGHT TO REPAIR, this is John Deere stuff, only it's a car and not a tractor.

4. Shit build quality would have us raving about butterfly keyboards 2.0.

And so on, and so forth. Steve Jobs had a "reality distortion field." So does Elon Musk, and it's aimed squarely at a certain very obvious demographic.

Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by bjelkeman-again on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:48PM (#34732836)
From a business perspective, a demographic bigger than the HN readership.
Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by ajross on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:30PM (#34732609)
> a system that regresses from basic LKA that was shipping in the mid 2000s in terms of safety

Cite? Everyone likes to throw around the word "safety" as a qualitative thing, but the only data we have points to the system being extremely safe.

Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by BoorishBears on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:48PM (#34732833)
Mid 2000s LKA was passive systems in the US market: they were backups that vibrated the seat or steering wheel, or provided mild outputs. That meant they couldn't actively put the driver into danger, making them inherently safer than a system that will gladly drive onto a sidewalk

Now what about active systems from back then? Almost 20 years ago Lexus had learned the lessons that Tesla kicked and resisted until about 2 years ago on. You need to watch the driver to ensure they're full attentive: https://lexusenthusiast.com/2007/09/08/a-look-at-the-lexus-l...

In markets with LKA, that same module was used to ensure that drivers were actively watching the road while it was activated.

In other words a 2007 Lexus did a better job on the one thing that Tesla is still getting dinged on (https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-driver-moni...)

Tesla blamed a man for playing Candy Crush when his Tesla drove into a barrier and killed him. Lexus had solved the problem that killed this man over a decade prior.

A 2007 Lexus would have used it's Driver Awareness Module to recognize the man was not paying attention and stopped lane centering. The solution was not complex, not expensive, iirc Tesla even had interior facing cameras by then but was still resisting turning them on until much more recently.

Tesla put their not-marketing ahead of human life, because if they had enabled more aggressive awareness monitoring than capacitance sensing or silly steering wheel jiggles, Elon wouldn't get to tweet about how "you're just there for regulatory reasons"

-

Also slightly off topic, but I think my biggest internet pet peeve is when people ask for a citation on a complex problem that requires critical thinking. I can't chew and pour the conclusion for you, but you're free to research before making low effort commentary like "Cite"

Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by ajross on Thursday February 09, 2023 @06:06PM (#34733038)
Are you saying a Lexus has never had a driver fatality from inattention? That seems ridiculous. What are you actually claiming here? If Lexus is safer than Tesla that seems like something someone can measure. Have they?
Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by MBCook on Thursday February 09, 2023 @06:28PM (#34733254)
> Are you saying a Lexus has never had a driver fatality from inattention?

That appears to be a deliberate misreading.

The GP was pointing out Tesla refused to follow well known best practices from around the beginning of Model S creation. Despite it being pointed out to them as a reckless choice numerous times.

They never said Lexus was perfect, they showed evidence Lexus appears to have taken the risks involved seriously in a way Tesla hasn’t, as evidenced by numerous recommendations from NHTSA that they did not follow or followed belatedly.

Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by BoorishBears on Thursday February 09, 2023 @06:41PM (#34733380)
I gave a concrete example of a systematic decision that Tesla is making that has resulted in avoidable deaths. I showed how a comparable system was trivially capable of avoiding the same cause of death due to its manufacturer making a decision in the opposite direction of Tesla: Putting human life above the marketability of a piece of tech.

If you want to somehow "interpret" into saying no one has ever died driven distracted in a Lexus, you're free to, but that's an absurd leap I won't bother engaging with. There's always some room for (mis)interpretation, but I think you're taking a football field on this one.

Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by dsfyu404ed on Friday February 10, 2023 @08:18AM (#34739274)
>Now what about active systems from back then? Almost 20 years ago Lexus had learned the lessons that Tesla kicked and resisted until about 2 years ago on

Lexus/Toyota doesn't "learn lessons". The are simply ultra-conservative about adopting anything so when anything is a dud or the V1 version sucks they wind up looking smart.

Re:Cause of Fatal 2021 Tesla Wreck Was “Excessive Speed” and... by BoorishBears on Saturday February 11, 2023 @03:23PM (#34755975)
... what and utterly bizzare form of sour grapes.

"They're not so smart, they just took a conservative approach to the life or death problem of drive attentiveness that resulted in their V1 solution outperforming Tesla's V3.x solution which came out 16 years later"

I mean for all their risk averseness, the Corolla got driver awareness monitoring before Tesla did, I don't think your point really works...