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Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by wahern on Monday February 06, 2023 @11:47PM (#34688882)
Critical Race Theory emerged from mid-20th century Black Power and Colonial Independence movements, which often either were literally Marxist movements in their own right, or intimately tied to them. There are countless examples of the close relationship, but one of the most pertinent embodiments would in be Frantz Fanon, who is one of the most important if not the most important ideological father of both Critical Race Theory and to a lesser extent several Marxist movements in post-colonial Africa.

A lot of anti-CRT rhetoric is clearly trying to use the Marxism link to discredit, out-of-hand, CRT. American politics has always been like that--guilt by association with Socialism. I understand the reflexive instinct to push back against that. But if you try to deny that the links exist, all you're doing is discrediting yourself and others, bolstering those pundits arguments; the links absolutely exist and are substantial. The nuance is that they're not substantial in the ways that the cheap rhetoric implies. (It's like if you took Christianity and replaced Jesus with Santa Claus. You couldn't possible claim the new religion wasn't an offshoot of Christianity, and much of it would be indecipherable without understanding historical Christianity and Jesus. But it would simultaneously be true that the new religion would in some of its most fundamental dimensions be entirely incompatible and incomparable to Christianity.)

If anybody wants to have an informed opinion on these debates, they could do much worse than actually reading Frantz Fanon. IMO CRT begins and ends with Frantz Fanon. If you read his seminal work, Black Skin, White Faces, you've read all you'll ever need to read regarding the ideological underpinnings of not only CRT but much of modern liberal identity politics. I found it a very powerful and enlightening book. (I first read it 20 years ago, before CRT entered mainstream liberal discourse, and before I had any knowledge of CRT as a school of thought or movement. When I did learn of CRT, the parallels to Fanon's ideas were immediately obvious.) But Fanon takes the ideology to its logical conclusion, which is permanent apartheid, and therefore lays bare the stark choice being made when one adopts liberal identity politics. I can't refute Fanon's ultimate conclusion that black-skinned minorities will never be able to find equality among a white-skinned majority (or, presumably, vice-versa if the historical script were flipped), but I choose to believe that there must exist some way to get there; otherwise as Fanon persuasively argues, all identity politics can possibly do is mitigate some of the worst injustices, but ultimately never eradicate the fundamental inequities. And therein lies much of Fanon's motivation for his Marxism advocacy--he thought the only way forward was for black countries to go their own way, and that necessarily involved adopting Marxism as capitalist systems would ultimately benefit the white establishment at the expense of black countries and communities.

Notably, though I've never read any of Malcolm X's works in full, AFAIK he ultimately came to similar (in a very, very rough sense) conclusions as myself. Earlier in his life Malcom X believed it was categorically impossible for black communities to ever live equitably among white majorities. But later on he changed his opinion. It was a choice he made, to choose to believe despite so much evidence to the contrary that there's a path forward offering both diversity and equity, rather than carry on with the dismal axioms that logically pointed to their irreconcilability. Making that choice doesn't require denying all that has happened and continues to happen, it just requires denying a worldview that ultimately makes it inevitable--essentializing racial identity is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Also, FWIW, modern Marxist scholarship provides some of the most vehement and technical opposition to CRT for precisely the reason you hinted at--replacing class conflict with racial conflict is anathema to Marxism. But when you read that scholarship, it's also instantly obvious that CRT and Marxism use nearly identical language. CRT is indisputably descended from the culture of Marxist scholarship.

Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by tptacek on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @01:46AM (#34689561)
Oh boy. Look, I just wanted to ding Rayiner for buying Rufo's schtick. In the Rufo cinematic universe, Gramsci is the most dangerous thinker of the 20th century.

Would Crenshaw agree that Fanon is the beginning and end of CRT? Race, Reform, and Retrenchment[1] contains an extended, detailed critique of Critical Legal Studies for instrumentalizing and superficializing Black struggle, and for the premise that in a conflict between avoiding legitimizing the dominant class (in the broader Gramscian sense) and advancing Black material interests, it's Black interests that need to give.

For that matter, you can go back to Crenshaw's Demarginalizing the Intersection[2] and see that (a) it is in the main a par-for-the-course case-by-case legal case study like lots of other law articles, and not an inscrutable blob of woke jargon, and (b) not especially Marxist? (Amusingly, this article was weaponized, with Crenshaw's approval, by Hillary Clinton against Bernie Sanders).

[1]: https://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Cren... [2]: https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...

Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by wahern on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @02:05AM (#34689660)
If CRT has anything to teach, it's that if you dismiss people's lived experience[1] you're only causing more trouble. When people see parallels between CRT and Marxism, you can either dismiss them or take them seriously. The fact that you disagree about the scope or meaning or implications of those parallels is a different matter. If you outright dismiss what seems patently obvious to people, that's where they'll stay stuck; and moreover, they'll take your dismissal as evidence of relative credibility.

I get that there are trolls out, including professional trolls, who weaponize innuendo and have zero interest in engaging in honest debate. But the reason for abstaining from quick dismissals is for the benefit of the people they're targeting, not the trolls. I guess what I should have written was: CRT absolutely has deep connections with Marxist thought. See, e.g. Frantz Fanon. So what?

[1] Only half using that phrase facetiously.

Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by tptacek on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @02:17AM (#34689725)
I can't not point this out, even though it's about the orangest thing I can write here: Fanon died roughly 30 years before CRT was a thing, and, moreover, CRT is an offshoot of Critical Legal Studies (which in turn is an offshoot of critical theory), and Fanon wasn't a legal scholar. He's a race-oriented critical theorist (I can't believe I'm writing this), right, not a critical race theorist?

Again, just back to Crenshaw, who wrote at length about how Critical Legal Studies loses the plot about racism in its zeal to reconsider the entire liberal legal structure.

I promise I'm just writing this because, like many HN comments, it is a sort of rhetorical burp I just have to get out.

More seriously: it is somewhat frustrating that any serious analysis of oppressor/oppressed systems can be dismissed as "Marxist" because of Gramsci and hegemony, because oppression is obviously a real thing (ask any evangelical Christian) but neo-Marxism is principally trotted out when the oppressed are disfavored. But then, lots of academics who pretty clearly aren't Marxist are happy to use Gramscian neo-Marxism as a tool, so, sure, maybe you're just right about this.

Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by rayiner on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @08:31AM (#34692470)
> Look, I just wanted to ding Rayiner for buying Rufo's schtick

It’s so funny that criticism of Rufo always revolves into this esoteric academic debate. I’m a plebe and I’ve never heard of any of those people. Rufo came to my attention because he leaked material that was given at a teacher training in Loudoun County, right next to where I grew up. As far as I can tell the bulk of his journalism is just publishing these leaks.

Maybe a better comparison is to the imams in madrasas teaching young Muslim kids that they’re oppressed by the west? Who knows? Whatever you label it, these materials shouldn’t be in the same building as kids, and the people who green lighted that should be out of a job.

Re:Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC... by tptacek on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:08PM (#34695472)
If you're not familiar with Rufo, a fun fact about him is that he ran for Seattle City Council on a pro-LGBT+ platform just a couple years ago. He's a professional troll.