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Re:Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU by kragen on Thursday February 02, 2023 @01:34PM (#34631070)
people need privacy not because their acts are unworthy

people need privacy because others' intentions and judgment are unworthy

if you've ever known anyone who was gay, who got divorced, who secretly had a deprecated ethnic background, who left their faith, who didn't want their ex-boyfriend to know where they lived, who revealed government corruption, who struggled for political change, or who could be raped or robbed by a stranger, you've known someone who needed privacy

even though they had nothing to be ashamed of

you might argue that if nobody had privacy, nobody would be able to get away with rape, or with lynching people they discovered had a drop of black blood, or with lynching apostates, or with gay-bashing, so these things wouldn't happen in a world without privacy

that would be a stupid argument because people did those things openly all the time, and they usually got away with it, and some of them still do; humans have a social pecking order, and it is defined by aggression with impunity

also people murder their ex-partners all the time even when they won't get away with

Re:Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU by stagas on Thursday February 02, 2023 @02:05PM (#34631536)
Dealing with aggression using privacy doesn't seem to be solving the problem though, nor it is a solution? You shouldn't live your life hiding. We need privacy because of X, underlies the assumption that X is something different and unwanted, perpetuating that idea it's trying to protect. If everything was public then it would more easily become part of reality, part of normal. Hiding in privacy just keeps the problem going.
Re:Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU by kragen on Thursday February 02, 2023 @03:12PM (#34632341)
We need privacy because of X, underlies the assumption that X is something different and unwanted, perpetuating that idea it's trying to protect

this is poorly expressed, but i think you're trying to say that privacy can only be justified to hide 'unwanted' things, and so arguing that people need privacy to hide being gay implicitly accepts that it is bad to be gay

this is the premise i explicitly rejected in my comment; to use that example, this is an instance of what i said

gay people need privacy not because being gay is bad

gay people need privacy because others' intentions and judgment toward gay people are bad

you seem to be arguing that it would be good to improve others' intentions and judgment toward gay people, and this is correct, but there are limits to how much mere exposure can effect such a change

i am not willing to sacrifice gay people's lives for that

it should be extremely obvious that your reasoning is invalid in some of my examples

your teenaged neighbor doesn't want everyone to see her in the shower and to know when she's alone and unprotected because she's vulnerable to being raped

there is no assumption that the shape of her breasts or her walking home alone last thursday are 'something different and unwanted' or in any way bad; quite the contrary, her ability to walk home alone is precisely the good that it is important to protect in this situation

the problem is, as ought to be obvious, certain other people's intentions toward her; she needs privacy to protect herself

Re:Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU by stagas on Thursday February 02, 2023 @11:16PM (#34637076)
But if you take today's societies as an example, those that do encourage being openly gay are those that have much less incidents of judgement towards gay. Societies where it's culturally fine to be naked in various situations, you forget about it, it doesn't become a thing to notice anymore. If you're at a nude beach, or at a sauna, people don't suddenly rape each other because they see them naked. It becomes normal very quickly.

I understand what you're saying but my point is if we didn't try to protect X, it would eventually be normalized, become part of daily life and not noticeable as a thing that needs to be protected AND that it seems that when putting protections for X, that protection implicitly includes the assumption that X is bad. A naked body isn't inherently an invitation for rape, unless you implant that idea into someone's mind through the ban of public nakedness, and being gay isn't a thing to judge, unless you make it a taboo and discourage its public expression.

I'm not convinced, the real life evidence in actual tolerant societies seem to suggest that the more open we are, the less secrets we keep and the more transparent we are, life improves.