Re:I want to lose every debate
by trompetenaccoun on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:30AM
(#34593503)
It reads like you're saying people should fake being open to arguments while actually already having made up their mind from the start.
>Imagine someone has an out-there idea
How would one know the idea is out-there until one has listened and understood what someone else is saying?
>And you play the nice, slightly curious, but not too curious person that has an open mind...
I don't have to "play" this part, unless I were someone who isn't naturally nice and curious.
One won't know, of course. I thought the whole point of saying "Imagine" is given such a situation, how to deal with it. Of course, while listening if it isn't an out-there idea, listen, converse and follow up.
Re:I want to lose every debate
by trompetenaccoun on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @07:02AM
(#34594034)
It's a hypothetical, sure. Imagine a debater who feigns being open to your viewpoint, with the actual purpose of steering the conversation into territory you may be less familiar with so they can in their view "beat" you there. I'd refer to this as a debating tactic, not listening. Or maybe listening à la Ben Shapiro.
Imagine someone has an out-there idea. Listening means you go along with them and have them explain it to you. And you play the nice, slightly curious, but not too curious person that has an open mind and ask the doubting questions. You know more Judo, less boxing, instead of punching and dodging you just make sure when they come at you, their own energy carries them into positions they have to deal with.
I tell you, a big fraction of the people's strongly held opinions completely fall apart when you just make them explain it in detail. And if they realized it is bullshit themselves that is a much more valuable thing than any fact you could ever provide.
Especially naive people with wrong opinions have a strong reactance. That means if you tell them they are wrong (something they are used to being told), they will now treat this as a fight and you as the enemy and they will proudly lie to themselves (1+1=3) just to one-up you.
That means the best way to get into productive territory with those people is to not swallow the bait and slowly go from where they are into a direction that is completely new to them.
That also means leaving arguments like "I studied $X" or "scientific journal $Y says $Z" at the door. Those basically trigger them back into learned talking points