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Re:Japan Has Changed a Lot by rayiner on Saturday January 28, 2023 @08:34AM (#34557444)
Sure, they’re a product of centuries, and the British, Mughals, etc. The British for example built many of our institutions, and we inherited British common law. Our constitution has language in it that you can trace back to the English Magna Carta. Modern Bangladeshi society fairly claims all of that. But who the country isn’t the product of, and hasn’t been shaped by, is some immigrant who has been in the country just 10 years. It’s an absurd assertion.

My wife’s family fought in the American revolution and were among the first pioneers to settle the Oregon coast. That frontier culture reverberates through all of America to this day. By contrast my family came here in 1989 to a country that was fully formed in its modern incarnation. It strikes me as absurd when people assert out of misplaced political correctness that America is my country just as much as it is her country. It reduces culture and nationhood and citizenship to a shallow and impoverished concept.

Re:Japan Has Changed a Lot by skedaddle on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:31PM (#34563564)
You are saying then that millions upon millions of Americans have no country. You obviously know that you would not have always had the "privilege to marry a white woman", and probably know that Oregon in particular has a nasty history in that regard. Not that it is alone -- in my family we've kept the newspaper articles that ran at the time my grandparents eloped from Misourri. They have headlines like "Kansas City woman marries Chinese", "she confirms he does speak English", "is pregnant with his son", ... etc. My father of course, when he came around, wasn't seen as an American boy in 1930s Kansas. His experiences there left him feeling like a "twilight child" for the rest of his life, caught in between foreign and native lands and not belonging in either.

Why is that alright? Were the anti-miscegenation laws wrong, but the newspapers not?

If you're from here or reside here and are committed to the future of the country, you are American. The country in its history has mostly not offered that assurance, and the law and culture behind it was badly racist.

Re:Japan Has Changed a Lot by rayiner on Saturday January 28, 2023 @11:53PM (#34565065)
> caught between foreign and native lands and not belonging in either

That’s just a state of affairs that arises when people immigrate. Nobody gives up the culture of old country completely in a single generation, nor do they fully maintain that culture either. Desire for belonging can’t change who you are, which is a product of your parents and their parents and their parents.

> If you're from here or reside here and are committed to the future of the country, you are American.

That defines “American-ness” as an individual characteristic, but nationality is a group concept. When you go visit America and say Japan you can easily observe aggregate group differences in culture, customs, attitudes, etc. That’s what makes one place america and the other place Japan. And if your ancestors were the ones who cultivated that culture, customs, and attitudes, and you were born and socialized into them, you’re more American or Japanese than someone who wasn’t.

> The country in its history has mostly not offered that assurance, and the law and culture behind it was badly racist.

You’re conflating race with culture and national origin. For example, most Bangladeshis wouldn’t consider me Bangladeshi, because I was raised in the US. Obviously that’s not “racist”—I’m the same race as 95% of that country. It’s because I was raised in a foreign cultural environment that’s alien to Bangladesh. For the same reason, it’s not “racist” for Americans not to consider me American. Because I’m not. As a first generation immigrant there’s huge swaths of my socialization and world view that comes from old country, not from America.

And that’s true of my kids too, who are being socialized very differently than the cousins from my American wife’s side of the family. Maybe generations from now their grandkids will be American, both in the sense that they’ll be assimilated into the dominant culture, but also in the sense that continuing south Asian immigration to America will have changed American culture, the same way that Germans and Italians did. But in the meantime there is no better way to describe them than observing that they have one foot in each world.

Re:Japan Has Changed a Lot by selimthegrim on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:45PM (#34574455)
You might be interested in Vivek Bald’s book “Bengali Harlem and the Lost Histories of South Asian America”
Re:Japan Has Changed a Lot by skedaddle on Monday January 30, 2023 @04:41PM (#34586834)
I disagree thoroughly. This was an extremely important issue for my dad, he literally imparted this lesson on us from birth (I know that might sound strange): we are to expect no more or less from our country than any other American boys, and it is no more or less ours than it is theirs. I can't put it the same way that he did, but anyway but it's in no way an "absurd", "shallow", merely "politically correct" attitude. People feel strongly about this. In politics because of the serious backdrop of family separation/deportation policy, the "shithole country" nationality, in general 18th-21st history on this continent (not to be discounted), etc. And personally because it's not like rare to have your own family story in America, even if your folks never set out to Oregon in a wagon!

... and don't get me wrong that is pretty rad. I have driven to and from St. Louis from the West coast a few times, and it is insane that anyone ever packed their family and shit from there to there in anything less than a huge truck/family minivan with cruise control air conditioning and radio all set to maximum.