I'll eat the pages of the law if anyone can find a clause that calls for quotas

Re:I'll eat the pages of the law if anyone can find a clause... by jjeaff on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:25PM (#34525027)

Comparing modern African immigrants to modern day Black Americans descended from enslaved people is not going to get you a clean comparison by any means. Modern African immigrants are one the most highly educated groups of people in the US. And many of them come having already attained that education due to family money, intelligence, whatever. The poor or even average African immigrants has little chance of making it here. In other words, you are comparing an all star team to the general population.

And yes, biases of past treatment is one of the main issues that many are trying to correct with affirmative action-like programs. There doesn't have to be any modern, active racism at all to try and correct the terrible damage done in the past on a systemic basis. In many cases, this past injustice is exactly what systemic racism is referring to.

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Re:I'll eat the pages of the law if anyone can find a clause... by s1artibartfast on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:45PM (#34525222)

To be fair, I did say comparable background, which can include education. There easily is enough immigrants, even poor uneducated ones lacrosse decades to make this comparison.

From what I read, poor and average immigrants do great, even African ones. Even more so, the first generation born in the US.

My greater point doesn't negate the impact of past treatment. If anything, it's strongly supports it. What I think it adds to the conversation is the idea that the challenge is very different than overly simplistic model of skin color discrimination which most people around usually try to reduce everything to.

Miss attribution of the root cause leads to ineffective Solutions.

I agree that historic impacts can be scoped into the definition of systemic racism, but that doesn't mean that other tenants of systemic racism are not overstated or incorrect.

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Re:I'll eat the pages of the law if anyone can find a clause... by haihaibye on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @06:05PM (#34525426)

I doubt matching for education matches for potential. An American who drops out of highschool is not the same as a malnourished African who never had the chance

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Re:I'll eat the pages of the law if anyone can find a clause... by s1artibartfast on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @07:30PM (#34526242)

I think that is exactly what you would want such a study to detect, not something that you would be trying to control for.

It is a matter of what the hypothesis being tested is. If your hypothesis is that racial inequality is due to ongoing discrimination on the basis of skin color, finding that the cause is a difference in potential undermines that hypothesis.

If the difference in outcome is due to different potentials, not skin color, you can ask why are the potentials different.

I think this is the interesting and most relevant question.

Why are outcomes so different for a black person born dirt poor in the US with immigrant parents compared to a black person born dirt poor with slave ancestors?

This Cuts directly to the heart of why racial inequality is so persistent in the United States.

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Re:I'll eat the pages of the law if anyone can find a clause... by haihaibye on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:52PM (#34525286)

It's going to almost impossible to match backgrounds between the two groups and selection effects are huge.

Another question is what are people owed if someone's ancestors were under artificial selection by slavers for many generations?

I think a claim there may be legit. However I'd rather keep objective admissions and hiring and just give cash transfers. I can understand though that people want status as well as cash

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Re:I'll eat the pages of the law if anyone can find a clause... by s1artibartfast on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @09:01PM (#34526841)

I don't think matching backgrounds is particularly difficult depending on how specific you want to be. Would be pretty simple to do a controlled comparison black people born dirt poor in the US slave ancestry versus immigrant parents.

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