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Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by shortcake27 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @02:52PM (#34523260)
Storing the TOTP in your password manager still protects against brute force / rainbow / phishing / MITM attacks. The author has come to their conclusion based on one scenario without considering any others.

For super important stuff, such as email accounts, I use an external authenticator. For medium important stuff where I want a bit of extra security (or I’m forced to use 2FA when I don’t want to), I store it in the password manager.

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by thewataccount on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @02:59PM (#34523341)
AFAIK TOTP doesn't provide protection against phishing / MITM attacks if the attacker is able to response within the time window (usually ~2x 30 seconds).

It also has limited benefit against brute force attacks since it's essentially just a few extra numbers added to the password (although that certainly helps).

It does provide a defense against leaked previously passwords, and keyloggers if they aren't immediately used.

I'd love to be corrected if this isn't the case though.

EDIT: Totally forgot - it also protects you if your password manager is breached, assuming you don't store it in the password manager

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by shortcake27 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @03:19PM (#34523603)
> AFAIK TOTP doesn't provide protection against phishing / MITM attacks if the attacker is able to response within the time window (usually ~2x 30 seconds).

This assumes a sophisticated attack, which is absolutely possible (I’ve even seen it happen), but is less likely than a form that just captures information. In any case, in the attack you describe, storing the TOTP externally doesn’t provide any additional protection over storing it within the password manager.

> EDIT: Totally forgot - it also protects you if your password manager is breached, assuming you don't store it in the password manager

Yeah that’s the entire point of the article. But managing TOTP separately can be a bit painful. So I’m saying that if you want a bit of additional security without any inconvenience, there are still benefits to storing a TOTP in your password manager opposed to having no MFA at all.

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by thewataccount on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @03:24PM (#34523661)
Oh yeah totally agree with you on all of that.

I wanted to make sure the limitations were pointed out that TOTP doesn't itself protect against sophisticated MITM/phishing attacks which a lot of people I've met thought.

But it absolutely provides some level of protection against unsophisticated attacks, and it's still helpful even inside your password manager.

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by corvec on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @03:09PM (#34523471)
If you use the browser extension, it provides resistance against phishing attacks because the password and TOTP won't auto-populate. It doesn't help against sophisticated MITM attacks at all - for those you need U2F / WebAuthn.

It helps against brute force attacks but how much it helps depends on the service. If your service prompts for a 2FA code when provided with an incorrect password, then it helps a lot. If an attacker receives confirmation that they have a correct password before needing to enter the 2FA code, then it helps less.

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by Fnoord on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @03:24PM (#34523667)
Like many security measures, it slows down an attacker, does not stop them.

And my Bitwarden Vault is hosted on a server I own. If it gets breached, I'm in deep trouble regardless.

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by gnabgib on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @06:18PM (#34525558)
TOTP slows down brute-forcing a service through normal access patterns (eg login, password reset). By normal access, I mean as provided by the software/vendor. One would hope said service has rate limiting and other mitigations to prevent bad actors brute forcing this way, of course.

However it is a second defense enforced by process/code alone (which can be turned off if you have access to the source). It doesn't effect the way your password is stored on the server, in the event of a leak or hack TOTP provides no brute force benefit.

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @02:58PM (#34523331)
> brute force / rainbow

If I'm using a long random password generated by a password manager, are these attacks realistic?

> phishing / MITM attacks

But if they can phish or otherwise capture my password, can't they just as easily phish or capture my one-time code?

> (or I’m forced to use 2FA when I don’t want to)

IMO, this is the only actual use-case, and it sucks because it adds additional login friction for absolutely no reason. If you want to ensure I'm using a strong password, generate the password for me as a condition to disabling 2FA.

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by shortcake27 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @03:27PM (#34523708)
> If I'm using a long random password generated by a password manager, are these attacks realistic?

Most likely no. But some people refuse to use such passwords, even when using password managers. Also it was only a few years ago Sony was caught storing passwords in plaintext so… Unless you trust the service is hashing and salting your password, MFA can be a good idea.

> But if they can phish or otherwise capture my password, can't they just as easily phish or capture my one-time code?

The TOTP lasts ~30 seconds. So the attack needs to occur in real-time (opposed to a form that just captures information). Can this happen? Absolutely. But it still raises the bar for the attack.

But yeah I agree, forced 2FA is infuriating.

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by gregmac on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:00PM (#34524748)
> Also it was only a few years ago Sony was caught storing passwords in plaintext so… Unless you trust the service is hashing and salting your password, MFA can be a good idea.

Though that site is likely also storing the TOTP shared secret in plaintext, beside the password, making it pretty much pointless. If the site itself is compromised, it's hard to come back from that.

Pretty much the best thing you can do is never re-use passwords across sites.

Re:Don't store TOTP in Bitwarden for your online accounts (2... by gnabgib on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @06:40PM (#34525782)
Both the time-step size (recommended 30s, 60s isn't uncommon) and the validity window (+-1 (3 windows), +-2 (5 windows)) are configurable by the implementation. The time-step size can't be changed after the setup (both the server and the client would have to agree) and are visible to you. The validity window can be altered server side and isn't visible to a user. It's in the best interests of implementer to keep the validity window small since they have to check all valid TOTP codes for a client, but the phishing window while near-time, is larger than the time your code is visible.[0]

[0]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6238