This is a bullshit argument, and I'd really love people to stop using it.

Mojave showed that people using Vista for short amounts of time in factory-approve conditions will think that it's "pretty neat." But Vista's always had the "neat" factor about it. Never as much as OS X, but then, not many people get a computer based on "neat" factor, despite what fanboys on both sides say about each other's products.

Where Vista sours is when you use it for a while and notice the little things. Of course, the security windows - even though you can disable them, that's the iconic one for Vista. I've had that security window crash my old computer, too: if your computer is running a lot of stuff, that window sometimes tips the entire thing over.

The little things bottle up. They build up and tip out. I just came across a post yesterday on Tumblr that mentioned one: I'd never actively thought about this feature, I wouldn't have ever thought to diss Vista for it after I got my Mac, but remembering it, it was awful in a small way.

http://tumblelog.marco.org/56149922

And when you've only used Windows, stuff like this is acceptable. It's commonplace. There is no alternative. But when you use any other OS, you realize that a lot of things are done much better. Linux has its own problems, namely drivers, but that was enough to make me hate Windows in no time at all. OS X is even worse for that, because it's better on an order of magnitude. And once a bunch of people started using OS X, and Apple started its campaign actively against Vista, people got very curious, and a lot of people starting noticing the things about Vista that pissed them off.

But then this is a circular argument - because it is totally dependant on individual preference & experience.

For me Linux and Vista are both not perfect and both have their (equally annoying) niggles. I use Vista for gaming and general use at home and Linux at work (& at home as servers and other uses).

I think that Apple can do really wonderful things -- my iPhone is miles ahead of any Windows Mobile phone I've ever owned. On the other hand, the Zune software simply destroys iTunes in usability and prettiness -- the Zune itself is a very nice device.

The link that you referred to talks about Windows XP (2004 should have been a clue) and isn't quite accurate anyway. I think that Tumblr may want to concentrate on reading dialog boxes a little more carefully.

With Vista, I'm out of love the minute I see needless chrome on the windows. The same with the graphical Linux interfaces I've used. There's the first real biggie. The 1px border design from Apple is one that I absolutely love, and it makes every other design I've ever seen look stupid and outdated.

The menu bar up top and the dock makes for the second thing. Both of them are so incredibly utilitarian. You don't get menus cluttering up every window. The fact that every menu usually complies with HIG and has the exact same keyboard shortcuts is another absolute wow gee love situation. It shouldn't be, but it is. I love knowing that CMD-, opens up preferences for every single application. I love being able to find what I want easily, because the menus are so standardized. And the dock made me hate the taskbar, because it makes the taskbar seem so incredibly outdated and useless. OS X doesn't just provide visuals. It provides a visual interface. Things make logical sense with it: they attempt to simulate a real physical interaction. Like the one I mentioned before: when you have a window open, the fact that you can move whatever file that window represents just by moving the window. Or the ability to move things to and from the dock, to use the dock as a storage space. Little things that just make perfect sense.

Vista will not stop telling me to restart my computer. There is no "Fuck you, I'll install when I'm ready* option. It keeps popping up, and it keeps coming up as I'm hitting Enter for something else, and it keeps pissing me off.

The Zune looks pretty, I'll agree. I don't like its scroll mechanism. And what about the Zune software is better than iTunes? I'm not denying you: I've just never used the Zune software, and I love iTunes. I'd be curious as to what the Zune program does better.

Everyday I use OSX I become more infuriated with it. The main reason is because it's tied to _one_ hardware manufacturer which makes it kinda useless really especially when that manufacturer doesn't like to give you a whole lot of choice.

Also, here's something interesting too about your favorite OS. There are no less than 20 Application Launchers (replacements for Spotlight). It seems that the dock isn't such a great replacement for the Start menu / task bar combo. See here:

http://www.usingmac.com/2008/10/25/mac-application-launchers

Besides the fact that it's fucking impossible to find anything in the Dock if you have hundreds of programs installed, you can't easily see what's running since the only indicator is a very small blue dot.

This is why you simply can't use it to switch programs and I bet you don't. You probably use Expose. Well, I don't know about you, but when I'm mousing around a lot it takes me a second to switch back into keyboard mode, especially if the keyboard shortcut is something stupid like F10, F11 or F12. On Windows all I do is click on the taskbar item for the program I want. It's much, much quicker.

The dock is simply a marketing gimmick.

Also, if Vista continually tells you to restart, you're doing it wrong. I have a Vista box in my living room which has an uptime of about 3 months now since the last reboot. And there is nothing better than Vista Media Center, it kills Front Row in so many ways.

The point is that with Apple, I don't have to worry about themes. It's already set up for me and the experience largely revolves around it.

The main reason is because it's tied to _one_ hardware manufacturer which makes it kinda useless really especially when that manufacturer doesn't like to give you a whole lot of choice.

What aren't you given a choice about? It's possible to replace the camera, the keyboard, the mouse, and pretty much any part of the system that you don't want. You can replace any program that you don't like, too. Though it goes without saying that I like Apple's restrictive hardware, because it means that things work without fiddling.

Also, here's something interesting too about your favorite OS. There are no less than 20 Application Launchers (replacements for Spotlight). It seems that the dock isn't such a great replacement for the Start menu / task bar combo. See here:

A lot of them were created before Leopard, in which Spotlight was sped up immensely. I haven't needed anything beyond Spotlight since 10.5, which was when I began using a Mac as my main computer. The only exception to that is Quicksilver, which is more of a function fiddler than it is an app launcher.

Besides the fact that it's fucking impossible to find anything in the Dock if you have hundreds of programs installed, you can't easily see what's running since the only indicator is a very small blue dot.

That's why you don't put every app you have on the dock. It's a storage place for apps that you use often. I actually don't keep any programs on the dock: I only use it to show currently running apps. And the blue dot is pretty high contrast even when the dock is tiny.

This is why you simply can't use it to switch programs and I bet you don't. You probably use Expose. Well, I don't know about you, but when I'm mousing around a lot it takes me a second to switch back into keyboard mode, especially if the keyboard shortcut is something stupid like F10, F11 or F12. On Windows all I do is click on the taskbar item for the program I want. It's much, much quicker.

No, because using the mouse for something like app switching is slow and pointless. I use CMD-tab, followed by CMD-` to select the window. It's much, much quicker. And it's faster than alt-tab on Windows, especially when I have a ton of windows open, because selecting the app rather than the window means I can get immediately to what I want. If I've got 15 Quicktime windows open and 1 Safari window open, I can tab over quickly. I also have Exposé turned on to the bottom corner of my window, so it takes a single flick to reveal all my windows. That's another really nice built-in Mac feature: corner commands.

The dock is simply a marketing gimmick.

Hardly. The dock is the center of Apple's user experience, as I said. It's been that way since it came out with the first version of OS X. It's a storage spot, a navigation tool, and a launcher. Stacks in particular is a well-loved addition.

Also, if Vista continually tells you to restart, you're doing it wrong. I have a Vista box in my living room which has an uptime of about 3 months now since the last reboot.

Every time it installs an update, it constantly prompts a restart. That's a pain in the ass.

And there is nothing better than Vista Media Center, it kills Front Row in so many ways.

The last time you provoked an argument, I asked you what makes this the case. You never responded to me. So, tell me now?

Though I recall last time your telling me you weren't going to have this argument any more. Why not let's drop this lengthy argument before we begin? The conversations I've had with you have not been pleasant.

Gee, nothing like making personal attacks when you've got nothing else to say. Please tell me, when did I make this personal? I didn't...

Anyway, to answer you question...what does Vista Media Center have that Apple Front Row doesn't? Well for one, CableCARD. Secondly, more hardware options, as usual. For instance, a Gyration remote (the best there is, IMO).

Please see this list of many other things, this person says it better than I have time for:

http://cybernetnews.com/2008/05/12/cybernotes-apple-front-ro...

Maybe the existence of so many choices to launch apps is indicative of more then Apple doing something wrong. It could show that everyone has their own paradigm for using their computer. And it's easy for anyone to customize the OS to do what they want if its not what Apple did by default.

So much for being locked into one choice, eh?

I don't know about you, but i have the ability to hit F9 and then the arrow keys to move around to various windows open in Expose. Or hit cmd + ` to switch between windows of my currently open app. Or cmd + tab and then use the arrow keys to go to the App i need. Or alt + tab to go between various elements of the currently open window. I can go on and on about the various keyboard shortcuts that OS X has. They're not the same as the Windows shortcuts so you have to relearn some. But they are there

And if you do use an app launcher, you could try not having anything in the dock and just using said launcher to open apps. This way, everything in your dock is open. So you don't have to hunt for the easy to see (imo) blue dot under apps.

But hey, I'm just one random person. And it sounds like you have your mind made up. So have fun using windows. I'll be over here having fun with my mac. Sounds like a fair trade?

Yeah, but remember, if you didn't switch to Vista, you'll still be running XP (which was released in 2001-ish). So you'll have to switch to something soon. Sure, some people will switch to Apple, but upgrading to Win 7 will almost be the default option.

And if you did switch to Vista, then you'll probably move to Win 7 as well when it comes out. People could afford to ignore Vista because they were happy with XP, but they won't continue to be happy with XP indefinitely.

Obviously, there are many people running all three. Where do you even get that idea from?