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Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by rayiner on Monday January 16, 2023 @07:26PM (#34407520)
I didn’t say “God” I said “religion.” “Secular” morality invariably reduces to a system of moral assertions that must be believed but cannot be empirically observed or proven true. To me, that’s just another way of saying “religion.”

For example, what’s Kantian ethics?

> It states that an action can only be moral if (i) it is motivated by a sense of duty and (ii) its maxim may be rationally willed a universal, objective law.

If I autopsy a dead body, am I going to find any evidence of those things in there? Can you empirically prove the categorical imperative?

Moreover, “secular morality” in practice is typically just the moral philosophy of the dominant religion with the supernatural elements removed. My dad isn’t a believer, but thinks choosing not to have children is immoral. Why? Maybe it’s because his parents were devout Muslims and having children is an important obligation in Islam. Similarly, it’s amusing to observe how many professed atheists really just believe in the Christian social gospel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Gospel) without Jesus.

I’m not saying that’s bad. But you have to understand how deeply intertwined even seemingly secular western thought is with Christianity, and doesn’t easily translate to other parts of the world.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by FreakLegion on Monday January 16, 2023 @11:16PM (#34409056)
> If I autopsy a dead body, am I going to find any evidence of those things in there?

Sure, they're a few centimeters to the right of the evidence of consciousness, just below the evidence of the Pythagorean theorem.

This sounds glib but isn't. What counts as 'evidence' and how much of it is needed for 'proof' are themselves hotly debated. Empiricism is no more a given than morality.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by rayiner on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @07:24AM (#34411642)
> Empiricism is no more a given than morality.

And now you’re in woo social studies land. Once you leave the land of empiricism you might as well be arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Re:Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia ... by FreakLegion on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @01:59PM (#34417012)
In woo land with my homies Poincaré, Gödel, etc. It's almost like the bedrock of knowledge is a deep philosophical question that every discipline strikes sooner or later, once they start digging. There really should be a word for it.