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Re:This is why I don't give you a job by fauigerzigerk on Saturday January 07, 2012 @10:33AM (#3437192)
You're right, the money is not stolen and the comparisons to other countries/systems are sometimes very odd. But if you take away 50% from everybody, the assumption has to be that everybody wants to buy all the same things in the exact same amount and quality.

The government takes away your "right" to find your own balance between opportunity and security. The government takes away your choice and your power as a consumer to discriminate between different suppliers, which causes those suppliers to be worse than they might otherwise be. For some things, like health care, the assumption is broadly correct, if the quality controls work (that's a big if). For most other things it is not correct at all.

Not everybody wants to retire at the same age or at all. Not everybody wants to secure the same pension or start saving for it at the exact same time of their life. Not everybody wants to go to university. Not everybody wants to have children or send them to the exact same (mostly broken) type of school.

Not everybody wants to buy expensive protection against being fired or getting sick for a week. Not everybody wants to support the local opera house, museums, the government's very own TV network or that network's very own classical orchestra. Not everybody wants to subsidise railway lines to remote parts of the country or the post office there.

And then there's the problem that some groups of people that are close to the government or belong to well unionised traditional industries are getting a lot more out of it than everybody else. The system isn't driven by need, it's driven by affiliation. Affiliations are a complex web and hence entitlements are organised in an extremely complex and ineffecient way that makes people want to stay put once they have a achieved a certain entitlement status.

At the end of the day, we're paying 50% into government coffers and yet we have widespread poverty in many European countries because the poor are a minority without much of a say in anything.

I'm not arguing for letting people go hungry, untreated and homeless when they cannot help themselves. I'm arguing for redistributing money instead of forcing canned buying decisions on everybody. I'm convinced that catching those who fall does not take 50% of all monies earned.

Re:This is why I don't give you a job by georgefox on Saturday January 07, 2012 @01:19PM (#3437628)
> But if you take away 50% from everybody, the assumption has to be that everybody wants to buy all the same things in the exact same amount and quality.

Not really. It's a matter of risk pooling and public good. In health insurance, for example, it's understandable for a healthy person to pay a premium higher than the value of the services he actually receives. In exchange, if he suddenly gets in a car accident, an expensive procedure may be affordable. Additionally, his disabled neighbor may be able to afford his otherwise extremely expensive care. This sort of scheme only works effectively when everyone participates, especially the healthy, low-cost folks, who bring down the cost for everyone else.

The same or similar concepts apply in unemployment insurance. Someone with a stable job may not feel he needs unemployment insurance, but paying into the system makes the system possible. If only the unemployed and underemployed paid for unemployment insurance, we wouldn't have such a thing.

With education, things are a little different. There are some people who will never have children to benefit from paying for public education, but these people indirectly benefit from living in an educated society. I don't have children, but I'm more than happy to contribute to public education, since I value literacy not only in myself but in others.

Arts (e.g., your TV, symphony, and museum examples) are basically an extension of education, though I suspect some people would probably argue against me there.

Infrastructure in rural areas is expensive, but in my experience, at least, those rural areas are often poorer than the more urban areas. Your options seem to be (a) cut those people off from society, (b) subsidize their infrastructure, or (c) pay them to move elsewhere. I think (b) is the most reasonable option.

In the end, the people in the most need generally have the least to offer, so the people with the most to offer either have to subsidize, or the least have to go starving. Universal, progressive taxation seems like a very reasonable way to accomplish the goals of a civilized society.

Re:This is why I don't give you a job by sopooneo on Saturday January 07, 2012 @02:18PM (#3437808)
I don't know if what I am saying contradicts you, but health insurance certainly can serve a rational purpose even if everyone that bought it was young and healthy. You premium simply needs to cover the average cost per subscriber plus some profit for the provider. It can (and possible should) also function the way you describe with the lower cost subscriber subsidizing the cost of the higher cost subscribers. But that is not an inherent part of insurance.
Re:This is why I don't give you a job by georgefox on Saturday January 07, 2012 @04:27PM (#3438116)
Agreed, that's a huge part of health insurance, and that's why I would never consider dropping coverage. But in practice, wouldn't health insurance almost have to subsidize the expenses of high-cost folks at the expense of low-cost folks? Actuarially, you'd have to manage to get exactly the average cost from each subscriber (plus an equal or proportional amount of profit) in order for that not to happen.

Now I'm assuming you're strictly talking about health insurance (though the same concept applies to homeowner's insurance, etc.), but isn't subsidizing high-risk/high-cost subscribers inherent in some forms of insurance? Take a pension, for example. Some people will live much longer than expected; some will die a year after they retire. The only way to account for this, other than periodically adjusting each retiree's income based on how unhealthy they are, is to pay for the pension of one ancient retiree with the funds from one who died young.

Re:This is why I don't give you a job by mtts on Saturday January 07, 2012 @12:49PM (#3437530)
There is not "widespread poverty in European countries". "Widespread poverty" is what they have in Africa. In Europe the poor are kept fed, housed and clothed precisely because the admittedly very large and inefficient in many ways governments spend some of the tax money they bring in to keep them that way.

This causes problems, to be sure, in that it disincentivises some, but not all wellfare recipients from trying to escape their poverty, but it prevents people from dying of hunger in the streets, which is, imho, a good thing.

Re:This is why I don't give you a job by learc83 on Saturday January 07, 2012 @01:28PM (#3437655)
I would say that the differences in poverty between Africa, and Europe have more to do with the extreme difference in wealth than with the difference is social welfare systems.
Re:This is why I don't give you a job by jbooth on Saturday January 07, 2012 @02:14PM (#3437799)
If those things are predominantly healthcare, police protection, civil administration and national defense, then yeah, actually it's a pretty good assumption that everyone wants those things. The cultural items you cite are tiny as far as expenses, and presumably the're popular enough to resist periodic efforts to cut their funding. Any quibbles about apportionment and overhead from the government would be dwarfed by the inefficiencies of breaking them out of gov't (see the US healthcare system).
Re:This is why I don't give you a job by acslater00 on Saturday January 07, 2012 @03:31PM (#3438001)
Nail on the head.