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Re:Genders.wtf by shadowgovt on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:01PM (#34341908)
> The counterargument is to ask the plaintiff to explain why she thinks her gender was used as a factor in setting pay

The evidence the plaintiff brings can be as simple as "I polled ten people with my job title in the company." If the company hasn't tracked this data at all and can't produce it in its defense, then in a civil case the plaintiff would have the preponderance of evidence on their side and the resulting resolution to make them whole could be all the back-pay they are owed between what they made and what their peers made.

So even outside of the need to file EEOC-1, companies are heavily incentivized to track this data (as any competent employment lawyer would indicate); you don't want to be scrambling to satisfy evidentiary burden in a lawsuit.

Re:Genders.wtf by Manuel_D on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:04PM (#34341965)
The company wouldn't just say "we don't have this data." The company would point to the systems in place that ensure that protected class is never revealed to interviewers or hiring managers. "Ms. Plaintiff, how could the interviewers have been biased against or discriminated against you on the basis of your gender, if they did not know and could not know your gender when setting your compensation figures?" Unless the plaintiff has evidence that someone leaked her gender to the interviewers, it's incredibly hard to even approach a preponderance of evidence that there was gender discrimination. In order to perpetrate discrimination, you must have some means of discriminating between applicants.

If someone complains about an orchestra that doesn't have the racial or gender makeup they want, but the orchestra points out they have blind auditions and robust systems to ensure that the identities of musicians aren't leaked to evaluators then it's tough to provide a preponderance of evidence of discrimination.

Re:Genders.wtf by shadowgovt on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:09PM (#34342032)
I am unaware of any companies trying the hard-anonymization strategy you're suggesting (apart from, possibly, Amazon Mechanical Turk, which is not technically doing hiring in the sense that no employer-employee relationships are created). I think it would be an interesting case because there are a lot of "leaky signals" that can lead to systemic discrimination even if the company took no active measures one way or the other (for example, basing a candidate's pay on 110% of their pay at their previous employer can result in implicit wage discrimination because men tend to enter the workforce at a higher pay and catch higher pay bumps in promotions). Whether the CRA or subsequent law implies an obligation on a company to close such gaps is, perhaps, unclear.

We'd have to wait to see what happens if someone tries it. Point is: in the average case, it's setting oneself up to spend time in court, and most companies optimize for staying out of court, not becoming a test subject on the path-dependency of novel caselaw.

Re:Genders.wtf by Manuel_D on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:17PM (#34342167)
"Systemic" discrimination is rarely actual discrimination in the sense of illegal hiring practices. Women enter and graduate from college at higher rates than men. Thus it's "systemic discrimination" against men to require a college degree. But since it is valid to require education credentials to perform related jobs, nobody can sue for this. Almost every hiring practice is systemically discriminating at some level. If I'm hiring a Spanish to English translator, surely it's legal to ask applicants to translate a piece of text, right? But that's going to be heavily biased in favor of Latin Americans. Even the audition-behind-a-veil example is surely systemically biased in favor of people who had disposable income to hire musical instructors at a young age, and lots of free time to practice correct?

The requirements to prove a discrimination suit are far more direct: you need to prove that the company directly used protected class to make hiring or compensation decisions. And if the people making these decisions were never even informed of the candidate's protected class status it's exceptionally difficult to make the case that this was affecting this decision making.

> for example, basing a candidate's pay on 110% of their pay at their previous employer can result in implicit wage discrimination because men tend to enter the workforce at a higher pay and catch higher pay bumps in promotions

Actually, this is a perfect example of something that isn't going to get the company into legal trouble. They didn't make this decision on the basis of race, gender or another protected class. They made this decision based on something entirely objective: the candidate's previous pay. If that employee's previous employer was engaging in racial discrimination, then that's the company that vulnerable to a lawsuit.

I'm interested in this notion that you can sue your current employer, because a co-worker's past employer potentially engaged in gender discrimination that bumped their salary, which in turn was used in negotiations with the current employer. Do you have an example of any such lawsuit succeeding?

Re:Genders.wtf by shadowgovt on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:46PM (#34342637)
> Actually, this is a perfect example of something that isn't going to get the company into legal trouble

Rizzo v. Yovino, 9th Circuit ruling, indicates that basing present pay on past pay may violate the Equal Pay Act of 1963 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericbachman/2020/03/13/past-sal...).

... but more importantly, this case has entangled the Fresno County public school system for over a decade. That's expensive relative to the alternative of... Not doing that.

Re:Genders.wtf by Manuel_D on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @02:18PM (#34343131)
Note that this 9th circuit ruling merely stated that pointing to the use of prior pay isn't an automatic win for the defense - this just let the plaintiff go back to lower court and try the case. The case is still ongoing, the plaintiff has not won the case.