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Re:X Window System Basics by kaba0 on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:15PM (#34332846)
Actually caring a tiny bit about security and not letting everything be a keylogger is not an “unfixable flaw”, there is working screen sharing for basically every mainstream desktop app, what exactly is that flaw then?
Re:X Window System Basics by icedchai on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:27PM (#34332942)
How true this is. In the 90's, at least one commercial Unix vendor shipped their systems with X11 open to the world (equivalent of "xhost +", full remote access, no security.) In the days of no firewalls, that was a fun time.
Re:X Window System Basics by sprash on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:24PM (#34332922)
Wayland does not care about security. In fact it does not even offer standardized access control protocols. The flaw here (among many others) is that the protocol that is responsible for negotiating display output for multiple processes (which is what Wayland tries to be) should also contain standardized interfaces to exchange that output among processes, but Wayland doesn't.
Re:X Window System Basics by tadfisher on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @08:32PM (#34333916)
No. Wayland is a display protocol, not a general-purpose IPC, no matter how allergic to DBus you are.
Re:X Window System Basics by sprash on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @08:47PM (#34334058)
Yes. Wayland is a display protocol, not a general-purpose IPC. Hence it must contain access control interfaces for buffers.

Only the compositor has access to the composited image therefore is the only program able to make screenshots and full screen sharing. Furthermore, efficient sharing of single application windows is only possible with direct memory access to the buffer which also is something the compositor does/has. The Display protocol is the only sensible place to negotiate access to GPU resources.

Re:X Window System Basics by QUrprUd1nCeicw on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @07:13PM (#34347096)
>The Display protocol is the only sensible place to negotiate access to GPU resources.

No, GPU resources can come from any number of other places. That's literally the purpose of direct rendering. Any applications using GPU compute can produce them without requiring a connection to the display server. There's no reason to put that in Wayland or restrict it to the compositor. There's already a much better protocol for sharing GPU buffers: Pipewire. Dbus is only there to act as the glue between a Wayland compositor and Pipewire.

Re:X Window System Basics by sprash on Thursday January 12, 2023 @03:36AM (#34350754)
The display server needs to have full control over managing GPU resources. Otherwise you get stuttering mouse movements under high GPU load or programs that don't update their buffers for seconds/minutes because of some rogue process taking over the GPU.

Also Wayland was supposed to be simple. A former simple "XGetImage()" call now gets turned into a process of negotiating with at least three different protocols (most of them only semi stable and only "invented" a few years ago), each running their own daemon, requiring well above 1000 lines of code.

The whole ecosystem is garbage and is either conceived by complete moronic retards or with the purpose of sabotage. The latter is more likely, nobody can be that stupid.

Re:X Window System Basics by QUrprUd1nCeicw on Thursday January 12, 2023 @10:51AM (#34355319)
No, with direct rendering the display server uses the same API as any other process that uses the GPU. The way to fix stuttering is to fix scheduling in the kernel. XGetImage is comparing apples to oranges. That doesn't use the GPU at all, that does a copy into main memory. Pipewire is complicated because it has to handle format negotiation and conversion and audio support and a lot of other things that make sense for generically transferring video between processes but are outside the scope of the display server.

Can you please knock off the conspiracy theories and flames? What are you hoping to accomplish by hurting people like this on the internet?

Re:X Window System Basics by sprash on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:49AM (#34356457)
> Can you please knock off the conspiracy theories

Don't tell other people what they are allowed to say Mr Thoughtpolice. This exactly the behaviour that I would expect from Wayland apologists, though. Your arguments are obviously wrong and pointless and the best thing you can come up with is shaming other people into self censorship.

Re:X Window System Basics by tadfisher on Thursday January 12, 2023 @02:20PM (#34358950)
> The whole ecosystem is garbage and is either conceived by complete moronic retards or with the purpose of sabotage. The latter is more likely, nobody can be that stupid.

> This exactly the behaviour that I would expect from Wayland apologists, though. Your arguments are obviously wrong and pointless and the best thing you can come up with is shaming other people into self censorship.

Yeah, I'm going to shame you for that. That kind of language isn't going to convince anyone, and it's actively harmful. Please stop.

Re:X Window System Basics by QUrprUd1nCeicw on Thursday January 12, 2023 @05:37PM (#34361244)
I didn't tell you what to say. I asked you nicely. Notice I used the word "please." You can make all the arguments against Wayland you want. Promoting baseless conspiracy theories and verbal abuse calling other people morons doesn't help get your argument across. It weakens your point. You're just hurting people as well as hurting your own argument by making these comments.
Re:X Window System Basics by wtay on Thursday January 12, 2023 @03:39PM (#34359957)
Hi, I'm maybe one of those moronic retards you talk about. Please, please help us out! The world is eagerly awaiting your super non-garbage solutions. Please show us the way... You could be a hero!
Re:X Window System Basics by sprash on Thursday January 12, 2023 @07:03PM (#34362122)
The Solution is very simple:

1. Scrap everything you have done so far and start over.

2. Use tried and tested engineering principles as basis for your development philosophy (such as "mechanism, not policy" or "Keep It Simple Stupid").

3. Choose the right target audience. The target audience of the FOSS-Desktop are neither car entertainment systems, nor Android consumer users that potentially download malware everyday. Your target audience are power users and developers that know what they are doing. If you don't agree, go work for a car manufacturer, work as an Android developer or do something else, just stay away from the FOSS-Desktop.

4. Do what developers and power users need! Just some examples: use simple and stable interfaces, use non-opaque low-level abstractions, standardize often used functionality, avoid redundant standards, don't litter my pstree with pointless daemons, use existing mechanism provided by the OS, use clear text for low bandwidth IPC, keep dependency trees as small as possible, keep build dependencies as small as possible, look at Plan9 as inspiration instead of Windows and MacOS.

Re:X Window System Basics by wtay on Friday January 13, 2023 @02:33AM (#34364927)
Awesome plan!
Re:X Window System Basics by QUrprUd1nCeicw on Friday January 13, 2023 @08:31PM (#34376304)
Wayland already meets all those points. And Plan9 doesn't use either X11 or Wayland. Why don't you take your own advice and switch to Plan9 if Linux is causing you problems?