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Re:Social contagions can cause genuine illness, and TikTok m... by s1artibartfast on Sunday January 08, 2023 @12:59PM (#34301362)
I wonder if there is an interplay between gender dysmorphia and the commodification of identity and sexuality.

I can't speak from experience, but what I see often seems like a treadmill of trying to obtain something external (recognition and validation) to make yourself happy and complete.

Re:Social contagions can cause genuine illness, and TikTok m... by kelseyfrog on Sunday January 08, 2023 @02:48PM (#34302403)
Do you remember how schadenfreude, became part of popular culture? It put a name to a feeling that people were already experiencing and people shared the concept because it helped explain part of themselves to themselves? It's like that.

Does the signifier schadenfreude alone commodity the feeling? That's a complicated question. In the way all signifiers commodify signifieds. See works by semioticists for opinions on this.

It feels like by interplay you might be suggesting is that commodification acts to produce more gender dysphoria. That's a but like asking if the word "anger" acts to commodify the embodied emotion and produce more angry people. I suspect the feeling would still be there, but far fewer people would self-identify as being angry at times because of an inability to recognize and communicate their experience. The inability to identify and communicate the feeling would cause a bunch of nth-order effects.

We've all been taught at a young age that there is a word for being angry, "anger" as explained to us by our parents, but by teaching us this word our parents didn't instill anger in us. Rather we've been taught to identify a pre-existing emotion.

As to the later, you can perform the thought experiment of closing your eyes and imagining how you would react if everyone approached and interacted with you as if you were the opposite gender. How would you reconcile your personal identity with that of people's behavior towards you? Do you suspect it would cause you to turn inwards and modify your internal sense of self or do you suppose your internal sense of self is foundational and that you would attempt to persuade those around you to instead adjust their perceptions?

To extend, personally, I would love to see a treatise on Stoicism as applied to gender dysphoria. My gut reaction though is that if an ingroup is suggesting stoicism to an outgroup, something has already gone very very wrong.

Re:Social contagions can cause genuine illness, and TikTok m... by s1artibartfast on Sunday January 08, 2023 @07:04PM (#34304856)
To follow your analogy, I think I am rather asking why people feel schadenfreude or anger.

When it comes to gender idendity, maybe the dysphoria and discomfort was always there, and at the same rates. However, social conditions and trends can make the feelings of schadenfrede and anger more or less common, independent of if we have a word to call it.

As an example, if we lived in a society that imbued less meaning into gender, and it was less of an important part of identity, would gender dysphoria be as common? This example is just a tool to ask what goes into a gender label, and why do people want it?

It is basically a the same question I struggle with when I perform your thought experiment and want to be treated as a different gender? What goes into the label, and why do I want it?

I imagine that if I was given the label, but none of the meaningful attributes I ascribe to it, I would still be unhappy.

Im not really trying to prescribe any solution like stoicism, or invalidate the feelings people have, but ask what gives rise to those feelings.

Re:Social contagions can cause genuine illness, and TikTok m... by kelseyfrog on Sunday January 08, 2023 @11:36PM (#34306795)
> I think I am rather asking why people feel schadenfreude or anger.

I wish I had a better answer for you. The only emotional model I've come in contact with is the two-factor theory[1] and even that's just a passing familiarity. More specifically, I haven't seen an incorporation of the two-factor model into gender dysphoria.

> As an example, if we lived in a society that imbued less meaning into gender, and it was less of an important part of identity, would gender dysphoria be as common?

Anecdata, but there are many many trans people I've talked to[2] who wish gender played a less prominent role in society(up to and including gender abolition). Given that goal is unlikely to be accomplished in our lifetimes, the very next best thing is to live the rest of their life as the gender they self-identify as.

> What goes into the label, and why do I want it?

Anyone who honestly engages with trying to understand the social ontology of gender[3] has the very difficult task of peeling back successive layers of social questions and answers that most folks foreclose on because it involves unanswerable questions about the nature of reality, knowledge, and truth.

I'd be happy to discuss more, but the sensitivity of the topic leaves me hesitant. Contact info in bio.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_theory_of_emotion

2. There's definitely selection bias at work and I fully acknowledge this.

3. As it largely exists in the west.

Re:Social contagions can cause genuine illness, and TikTok m... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:26PM (#34363942)
> I wonder if there is an interplay between gender dysmorphia

Gender dysphoria. Body dysmorphia is a very different thing, despite the words being similarly shaped.