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Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by punnerud on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:44PM (#34210660)
First thank you for the article. Looking forward to Part II. Two questions:

How do see the chances for other competitors to be able to catch up with SpaceX/Starlink?

And are there some other challenges than congestested space and congestested frequency spectrum, when there will be several competitors in space?

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:53PM (#34210753)
> How do see the chances for other competitors to be able to catch up with SpaceX/Starlink?

Not the author, but Starlink’s parallel competitive threats are usually exaggerated. They have cheap capital and they own their own trucks. That helps. But it’s not a blocking advantage. Their existing fleet is only a marginal competitive advantage to a new sensor suite; there is little evidence they build better birds than anyone else (versus their rockets, which are in a class of their own).

> congestested frequency spectrum

Lasers.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by georgeg23 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:01PM (#34210825)
An order of magnitude lower launch costs to LEO (about $1K/kg now for Falcon 9) and another two magnitudes with Starship.. is a blocking advantage. Constellations don't make sense otherwise, see history: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink#Background

Keep in mind lasers don't work to the ground unless there are no clouds and stable atmosphere. RF 10-30 GHz work fine to ground and are directional enough that spectrum can be reused and multiple beams formed with one phased array. The real limitation is ITU regulation on total power flux density on the ground for all constellations in these frequencies.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:07PM (#34210888)
> order of magnitude lower launch costs to LEO (about $1K/kg now for Falcon 9) and another two magnitudes with Starship.. is a blocking advantage

If they used it to block, sure. Starlink’s advantage is SpaceX’s margin.

> lasers don't work to the ground unless there are no clouds and stable atmosphere

Relay.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by marcusverus on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:31PM (#34211170)
> If they used it to block, sure. Starlink’s advantage is SpaceX’s margin.

As long as Starlink competitors use SpaceX to reach orbit, the advantage is realized on both Starlink launches (as savings) AND on competitors’ launches (as profit). Doesn’t that make SpaceX’s advantage 2x their margin?

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:34PM (#34211202)
> the advantage is realized on both Starlink launches (as savings) AND on competitors’ launches (as profit). Doesn’t that make SpaceX’s advantage 2x their margin?

Sort of. Every dollar of competitors’ launch margin doesn’t go to Starlink. SpaceX’s near-infinite fundraising capacity, and thus low cost of capital, is far more significant. (There are also orbital trade-offs between imaging and comms.)

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by wpietri on Sunday January 01, 2023 @06:19PM (#34212192)
> SpaceX’s near-infinite fundraising capacity

I have to wonder how sustainable this is. From the perspective of an investor, I would not be excited by Tesla being down 70% off peak and Twitter becoming the most notable corporate clusterfuck of the year. Investing in SpaceX these days seems like a bet that the CEO will be so distracted by his other problems that he won't have time to mess with the people actually running it.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by bboygravity on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:15PM (#34214286)
Do you have ANY substantiation for Twitter being a coorporate failure or are you just parotting the biggest Twitter competitors (newspapers)?
Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by wpietri on Monday January 02, 2023 @11:09PM (#34227555)
What I actually said is "most notable corporate clusterfuck of the year".

We don't know how it's actually going. Musk is a notorious BSer, and as a privately held company, they don't have to release actual numbers.

But Musk took a company that was doing just fine, made a weed-joke-priced offer, changed his mind, tried to BS and wriggle his way out of the deal, and grudgingly went through it when it became obvious a chancery court judge was likely to force him to buy it anyhow. With that alone it was probably the most notable corporate clusterfuck of the year.

And that's before the actual takeover, where he loaded it up with so much debt that -- and this is according to him -- it could very well be bankrupt in short order. He then flailed around with his amateur-league management dramatics for months in ways that if you somehow missed, you can Google. All while ignoring a much more valuable company that's the source of his wealth as its stock price plummeted by 70%.

If you think there's a more notable corporate clusterfuck in 2022, please do name it.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by mikepurvis on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:04PM (#34210853)
Also, conventional radio can be steered with multiple transmitters, right? Is there a way to steer laser beams in a solid state way?
Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:09PM (#34210909)
> way to steer laser beams in a solid state way?

Yes, MEMs and waveguides.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by georgeg23 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:16PM (#34211000)
Unfortunately not ready for prime time yet, optical beamforming today is only a few degrees steerable angle and single beam. Also low power and poorly focused.
Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:26PM (#34211116)
> not ready for prime time yet

Totally agree. But the frontier is advancing thanks to LiDAR. And in the meantime, the advantages of laser relay and downlink are vast enough to make mechanical actuation worth it. Particularly for unboosted birds in LEO.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by georgeg23 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:43PM (#34211287)
Curious how LiDAR tech could be used for high speed communication?

At best that is time-multiplexing, not multiple parallel beams of information?

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday January 01, 2023 @05:07PM (#34211541)
> Curious how LiDAR tech could be used for high speed communication?

Lasers don’t care if they’re carrying data out or on return. The same optics being pursued for LiDAR have applications in communications. Solid-state waveguides and MEMS being examples.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by techdragon on Sunday January 01, 2023 @09:34PM (#34213570)
Lasers work to the ground better than your implying. ,

Modern laser communication ground stations are designed or bring designed incorporating adaptive optics to significantly improve their resilience to atmospheric turbulence. Clouds remain an issue but most laser communications networks are designed with multiple ground stations to ensure sufficient good weather to provide continuous communications. Also several laser communications providers are designing their systems using relay satellites either MEO or GEO to serve as the space to ground really, centralising the higher power space to ground laser link and more expensive optics, and simultaneously placing them higher up enabling better ability to switch between multiple ground stations in the event of cloud disruption.

The laser communication industry is very small still but it’s growing as ground stations get more standard and economical, with commercial units available for both space and ground sides, for a couple of years now.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by toomuchtodo on Monday January 02, 2023 @01:53AM (#34215121)
Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by tpc3 on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:44PM (#34223396)
Recent (12/21/22) article on the subject: Laser links are great for satellite relay, but challenges abound for taking it to ground https://spacenews.com/walking-a-narrow-beam-laser-links-are-...
Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by nine_k on Sunday January 01, 2023 @10:33PM (#34213943)
Do efficient 30 GHz masers exist?

If not, how narrow can be made a beam by using a beam-forming phased array 10-20 m wide? The diffraction limit at 30 GHz (10 cm) should be reasonably small.

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by campchase on Sunday January 01, 2023 @09:25PM (#34213520)
> How do see the chances for other competitors to be able to catch up with SpaceX/Starlink?

I like to remind people that it’s actually SpaceX who is still catching up to legacy providers of space-based connectivity. As I mention in the footnotes, my wife’s grandfather was working on commercial comms satellites in the 60s! Starlink will probably become the biggest provider of space-based internet connnectivity soon, but I think when HughesNet still has more subscribers today (Hugheswho?).

And their principle competitor among the new disruptive LEO constellations is Amazon. Famous pushovers.

I don’t think there will be one winner, just as the history of comms in space has shown there likely won’t be. But by owning launch, SpaceX has a large advantage. Thing is…Amazon has its own infrastructure advantage (AWS). Will be fun to watch it play out.

> And are there some other challenges than congestested space and congestested frequency spectrum, when there will be several competitors in space?

Space is not that congested, imo. A huge satellite is the size of a Cessna. LEO is hundreds of kilometers above the Earth’s surface. Even if it were only a few thousand feet above the surface, if you imagine 10,000 Cessnas flying around the surface of the Earth, they aren’t super likely to run into each other. But I’m no expert.

What I do know is the current procedures for handling conjunction events are scarily shoddy and there’s a lot of room to improve (fear not, a ton of people are working on it).

Re:“Internet in Space” Will Transform the Satellite Imagery ... by Thervicarl on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:40AM (#34215757)
> their principle competitor among the new disruptive LEO constellations is Amazon

The main criteria should be: who has hardware in space ? So the answer is, despite all their problems, OneWeb.