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Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by wyldfire on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:39AM (#34169886)
> Second, I think people will start to put a premium on accounts being "verified" as genuinely human.

IMO this is long overdue. And I think people should/will eventually even pay for this feature.

> Powerful nation states will be more than eager to assist them in this regard.

I agree - world governments could consider even subsidizing this in some way in order to foster fewer anonymous botnets sowing discord. The web of trust could be useful to help bolster this - if only in providing the process by which new social networks could eliminate anonymity.

I hear a lot about SSI [1] from a family member who works on this stuff. I'll be honest - I don't know whether it's promising or dystopian. Maybe a little bit of each. But I optimistically think it could be a way to help mitigate some of the problems created by anonymity.

The loss of anonymity won't be a panacea -- for example: people with legitimate accounts bound to their identity today accept bribes to create positive reviews of goods. And the loss of anonymity comes with significant drawbacks: criticizing government and powerful people becomes more difficult.

Having a digital reputation that you can taint could put people on their best behavior. But then again it's a bit dystopian [2, 3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sovereign_identity

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by ls15 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:41AM (#34170173)
> But then again it's a bit dystopian

I am having a hard time to imagine a scenario that is more dystopian

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by babyoil on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:55AM (#34170234)
The Black Mirror episode handling this is one of the most dystopian and scary ones for me.
Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by balsam on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:56AM (#34170516)
Going to buy some SamAltman WorldCoins now. Nothing like profitting from and supporting AI safety and AI based dystopia at the same time. /s
Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by ourlordcaffeine on Thursday December 29, 2022 @03:51AM (#34170793)
Won't bot/troll farms just buy "verified human" accounts?
Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by eru on Thursday December 29, 2022 @03:55AM (#34170814)
That's what they are doing already. It's just that the human verification involves solving some captchas etc.
Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by taylorportman on Thursday December 29, 2022 @04:06AM (#34170869)
I've always wondered why governments can't run social networks for giving voice/reputation to citizens weighing in on current issues to give rise to a phenomenon similar to the net in the Ender's Game books that gave voice to Ender's siblings. There exists a lot of untapped potential to harness the passion of the armchair pundits but no pressure to mold this passion into grassroot hierarchical influence that could potentially grant political sway for individual's expert opinions. Currently opinionated relatives of holiday dinner & BBQ socials are under little pressure to cultivate their passion beyond a small inner circle of hostages of social etiquette - if only they had an outlet to mold that cunning & passion, to temper it with the satisfaction of having your opinionated views addressed by the big shot president of the times. In the book, these kids are calling shots under pen names. It's fun to think about.
Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by ls15 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @04:38AM (#34171026)
Even though it is not an official service, in Germany there is Abgeordnetenwach [0](Translate: representative watch), where citizen can ask parlamentarians directly. Some parlamentarians are great at answering questions, while some never reply and some only let their offices copy & paste standard replies. I wish politicians would be forced to make an effort to reply to their sovereign. Certain reasonable anti-spam and DoD measures granted.

[0] https://www.abgeordnetenwatch.de/

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by Renaud on Thursday December 29, 2022 @06:00AM (#34171460)
>loss of anonymity comes with significant drawbacks: criticizing government and powerful people becomes more difficult.

How don't see how making our lives more dystopian can be a net benefit.

How many of us expose different aspects of ourselves through different identities? Maybe most people are happy to show everyone all aspects of their lives, but I'm not, in part because who I am could get me or the people I meet in trouble, harassed, imprisoned or worse in some places.

Anonymity should remain a fundamental right. We have the right to live and expose different parts of ourselves to different audiences without overlap.

Anonymity is also a counter-power to governments. A government that knows all about its citizen is bound to abuse this power.

We see it in many democracies; elected governments enact laws that restrict freedoms to keep itself in power (Russia of course, Turkey, Algeria, but also EU countries like Bulgaria). Tools like government-issued ID that become mandatory to express yourself online are doubly dangerous: they make it easy to target those who cause trouble, and they can be used to remove means of expression (who can listen to you if you are denied an ID and there is no freedom of press to expose the abuse?).

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by swader999 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:32AM (#34172418)
Yep, a functioning society that benefits the most needs some form of anonymous dissent.
Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by bilbo0s on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:15PM (#34174938)
You guys are misunderstanding how things are developing here.

The danger is not that you'll lose anonymity. The danger is that if you use anonymity, no one will listen to you. I'd wager a lot of algorithms will just shadow ban you. This is because you become viewed, effectively, the same way as the AI agent generating brand placement tweets for Bob's Bargain Basement Bar-B-Que and Bitcoin.

No one will know the difference between you and the corporate AI's. Only the verifiable humans will end up with opinions that anyone pays any attention to. It's like everything else will be a banner ad. Whether it's a banner ad or not.

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by pessimizer on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:16PM (#34175859)
> Only the verifiable humans will end up with opinions that anyone pays any attention to.

This depends on people valuing who is saying something rather than what is being said. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying that if we're just trading in celebrity rather than ideas that I'm pretty sure we can also create celebrity AIs people would listen to.

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by Faark on Thursday December 29, 2022 @05:35PM (#34179018)
Yeah, we will simply use an AI to summarize the article and comment section for us and skip all the spam and crap.

Jokes aside, now that i think about it, "article summaries" are kind common on reddit, but i've never seen such an algorithm used for comments, yet. Guess Up&Down-votes are still the best we have.

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by swader999 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:41PM (#34180674)
I think that's always been an issue, less weight for anonymous.
Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by fennecfoxy on Friday December 30, 2022 @09:42AM (#34185439)
Only if the general population _allows_ making criticising government/powerful people possible, which it currently does.

Society makes things like blackmailing, etc possible too. In a truly free society we wouldn't judge each other for all the stupid stuff we do now; the majority of people are still extremely prude/immature sexually & will judge others for anything outside the norm in a heartbeat - hell even mentioning inside the norm sex stuff is still somewhat taboo.

As a gay dude involved in a few fun subcultures both in & out of bed it's so refreshing to be able to be so open about sex, if only everyone else was the same, about all topics. Y'all are missing out.

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by pavel_lishin on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:10AM (#34174064)
> Having a digital reputation that you can taint could put people on their best behavior.

I've seen some pretty reprehensible behavior from people who put their full name and a photo of their face on Facebook.

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by LarryMullins on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:09PM (#34174848)
I think as soon as people see "verified humans" posting things they utterly disagree with, the temptation to call those people "bots" will be too great to resist. A substantial portion of internet commenters will sooner call a human verification system into disrepute than admit that some real people really do earnestly disagree with them. They'll spin conspiracy yarns about how "the other side" controls the verification process and allow their own bots to participate.

I think the solution to all of this is smaller tight-knit discussion groups where all the participants know and trust each other. Echo chambers will inevitability form. I don't think there is any way around this.

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by pessimizer on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:09PM (#34175767)
You're just poisoning the well.

edit: I find it very bizarre and very fashionable to defend the integrity of a verification service that does not exist, and to already dismiss the non-existent people who could suspect that this hypothetical system of verification was corrupt as conspiracy theorists.

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by LarryMullins on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:53PM (#34176320)
Your response is very strange. I have not "defended the integrity of a verification system", nor am I inclined to because I do not support the creation of such verification systems in the first place. And I have no clue what "well" you think I'm poisoning.

My point was not that such verification systems are incorruptible. My point is that such verification systems are pointless because they will inevitably be perceived as corrupt. Whether or not the verification system is actually corrupt makes no difference. Such systems are worthless because people won't trust them. Any system will be accused of being corrupt by "both sides" of any heated debate, and they're not both going to be right. But it doesn't matter of one, the other or neither are correct. What matters is that the system won't work because people won't trust it.

Re:AI: Markets for Lemons, and the Great Logging Off by Faark on Thursday December 29, 2022 @05:32PM (#34178979)
Sure, people will complain. But at the end of the day, you platform either has it or will actually be drowned out by bots. Just like everyone is complaining about moderators, but all the "free speech" have them anyway. Bots doing their part to split society & boosting echo chambers sounds reasonable, but i doubt verification system will have much impact.