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Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by nicoburns on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @01:34PM (#33987758)
> I would really like to have a true Firefox on iOS but I'm also cognizant of the fact that iOS' browser restriction is basically the only reason why “web” is not a synonym for “whatever the Google Chrome team chooses to ship”.

I feel like Firefox might actually regain marketshare if it can ship on iOS. Firefox on Android has a decent claim to be being better than Chrome at this point (largely because you can't run extensions on Chrome).

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by est31 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:14PM (#33988549)
Safari does support extensions on iOS: https://developer.apple.com/safari/extensions/

So you can't innovate on that, at least meaningfully. If you want the browser with best website support, then you'd go with Chrome. If you wanted your bookmarks from your desktop to be in sync with mobile bookmarks, then most likely you are going to install Chrome, because most likely you had Chrome on your desktop (as it is the most common desktop browser).

Also, an apple policy change to lifts the restrictions for non-apple apps to not be extendable, is a different beast entirely from allowing custom web rendering engines.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by sodality2 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:42PM (#33989061)
> If you wanted your bookmarks from your desktop to be in sync with mobile bookmarks, then most likely you are going to install Chrome

iOS+Chrome users already do this, it would just change iOS Chrome's backend rendering engine.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by vlunkr on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:05PM (#33989506)
> Safari does support extensions on iOS

They have to come from the app store, which greatly reduces the number of plugins available compared to FF, and subjects them to the same strict policies as their apps.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by yjftsjthsd-h on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:02PM (#33988341)
> I feel like Firefox might actually regain marketshare if it can ship on iOS. Firefox on Android has a decent claim to be being better than Chrome at this point (largely because you can't run extensions on Chrome).

Firefox is better than Chrome on Android, but it doesn't have the market share to match.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by spijdar on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:40PM (#33989007)
I know this probably won't be a popular opinion, but I have to disagree with this. I use Firefox on all my "general purpose" computing devices, but I only use Firefox on Android for recalling the passwords I have saved on my Firefox/Mozilla account.

For any day-to-day browsing, I use Brave with the cryptocurrency bits turned off. I used the "Fennec" version of Firefox for Android for years, since my first smartphone in college, but by the time the GeckoView-based rewrite was released, I just got tired of the poor performance and reduced battery life compared to Chromium. Only one anecdote, but Firefox felt more jittery and made my phone much hotter than Chromium did.

After the UI overhaul, where (IMO) they tried to copy a Chromium-style interface, I ran out of any non-ideological reasons to use it over Chromium-with-an-ad-blocker-built-in.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by dutchCourage on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:27PM (#33989974)
Unfortunately I have a similar experience with FF on Android. A more jittery experience and a bigger batter drain than Chrome, even without any extensions installed.

I'll plug my main mobile browser which is now Samsung's internet. I gave it a hesitant try after being disappointed by FF and I'm positively surprised. The UI customization options are even better than Firefox.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by Zuiii on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:22PM (#33994262)
Samsung's internet has a misguided "feature" where it will change some colors but not others when night/dark mode is active.

Do not use it if you rely on accurate color reproduction. Expect a decease in usability (dark text on dark backgrounds, light on light) on reading some sites.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by brokenodo on Thursday December 15, 2022 @12:18AM (#33995547)
Note that the Samsung Internet privacy policy is awful. They collect:

“The information we obtain in this manner may include, identifiers associated with your devices, types of devices, web browser characteristics, device and operating system type and characteristics, language preferences, clickstream data, your interactions with Samsung Internet (such as the web pages you visit, links you click and features you use), dates and times of your use of Samsung Internet, and other information about your use of Samsung Internet.”

https://developer.samsung.com/internet/privacy-policy-us.htm...

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by ThePowerOfFuet on Thursday December 15, 2022 @05:40AM (#33997602)
If you hadn't replied with this, I would have.

Thank you for spreading this.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by dutchCourage on Friday December 16, 2022 @04:35PM (#34020774)
Thanks for the heads-up, this is pretty bad indeed. There's truly no escaping the fight between convenience and privacy.

Sigh

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by GekkePrutser on Thursday December 15, 2022 @12:56AM (#33995809)
The rewrite was pretty bad yes but it's good again now. I never use chrome anymore on my Android devices.

Only things that still bother me on FF is not having access to all extensions and not having pull to refresh.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by noisem4ker on Thursday December 15, 2022 @07:21AM (#33998393)
"Pull to refresh" has been in Firefox for Android for years. See Settings > Customise > Gestures.

About not having the full extension catalog available out of the box: it's pitiful, but if you're determined to install non pre-allowed extensions, you can do so using Nightly and with a custom add-on collection. See https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2020/09/29/expanded-extensio....

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by GekkePrutser on Sunday December 18, 2022 @12:25AM (#34035289)
Huh, I don't have Pull to Refresh under Settings > Customise > Gestures. I wish I did.

I only have "Scroll to hide toolbar" and "Swipe toolbar sideways to switch tabs"

This is in Firefox 108.1.0 which is the latest.

I know you can mess with Nightly to allow other addons but I don't really like using nightly to be honest. This feature should really be in the mainline too.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by jesserwright on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:25PM (#33994286)
I would advise against storing passwords in a browser vendor sync service. Bitwarden, 1Password, etc.. are the tools for that specific job and function across all major browsers and even some native GUI shells.
Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by random314 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @10:47PM (#33994957)
Why the caution?
Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by acdha on Thursday December 15, 2022 @09:07AM (#33999665)
How would you explain the benefits to the average person? This doubles the number of parties they need to trust and usually means adding a subscription service so it seems like a tough sell.
Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by gjsman-1000 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:06PM (#33988415)
> I feel like Firefox might actually regain marketshare if it can ship on iOS.

Firefox is currently superior to Chrome on Android, yet the market share is abysmal and irrelevant. I don't see why swapping the browser engine would grow market share, other than wishful thinking.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by idle_zealot on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @05:11PM (#33991358)
You have to consider that Chrome is the default on most Android distributions. A more apt analog would be FF's similarly poor market share on Windows or macOS.
Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by rvz on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:43PM (#33989064)
> I feel like Firefox might actually regain marketshare if it can ship on iOS. Firefox on Android has a decent claim to be being better than Chrome at this point (largely because you can't run extensions on Chrome).

Let's start with the facts. Firefox market share has been chronically flat with little to no change for years, as the global mobile browser market share [0] has shown even with Android having browser choice for the user.

Hence that, it also suggests that even if Apple did the same thing, it would just further cement Chrome's dominance on iOS. Firefox on mobile is shrinking into irrelevancy.

[0] https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/mobile/world...

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by Groxx on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:43PM (#33989075)
Firefox has supported extensions on Android for several years now. The current state of support is a rather significant step down from where it used to be.

Surprisingly, that's not enough to be competitive with the browser that's already installed on people's phones.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by Zuiii on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:29PM (#33994324)
I just tried installing an add-on on my android and the "Add to Firefox" button is still grayed out. Searching for "compatible" extensions yields only 15 results.

So no, Firefox still doesn't support extensions on android and hasn't since they disabled them years ago.

THIS is why people like me don't use firefox on android and use chromium-based browsers instead. At least, they let me install the add-ons I want.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by ilovegorhill on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @10:57PM (#33995023)
To use more extensions on Android, install Firefox Beta and follow this tutorial: https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2020/09/29/expanded-extensio... (the title says Nightly but it works on Beta too now).
Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by Groxx on Thursday December 15, 2022 @07:37PM (#34007904)
>Searching for "compatible" extensions yields only 15 results.

That's the complete list, yeah. It's utterly ridiculous and insulting.

You can get around it by making an online collection of extensions with a Mozilla/whatever account, but you can't install from files.

I largely agree, it doesn't meet my bar for "supports extensions" :/ hence at the very least "significant step down" - that much is at least not contentious.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by nicoburns on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:58PM (#33994571)
The old version of Firefox on Android was awful. The UI was laggy, and the scrolling was so slow it could actually take over a minute to scroll up long pages.
Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by Tijdreiziger on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @10:39PM (#33994887)
The performance of Fenix (the new version) is at least as bad as Fennec (the old version) for me.
Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by pwdisswordfish9 on Thursday December 15, 2022 @03:40PM (#34005421)
Never forget that concurrent with the decision to move to a native Android UI for the non-Web parts of the mobile Firefox app (whereas previously it was using Gecko for the browser interface itself, just like on desktop), the powers that be were announcing/hyping Firefox OS—an entire mobile operating system that would "boot to Gecko", and where all apps would be required to implement their UI with this strategy that Mozilla knew have substantial downsides since they were already abandoning it themselves for performance reasons.

Left hand, meet right hand.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by Groxx on Thursday December 15, 2022 @07:43PM (#34007950)
B2G and Firefox OS did some legitimately cool things - they still have a better blended app+web experience than anything mainstream that I've touched. Android's crappy instant apps are laughable in comparison. There's plenty to learn from that experiment(?).

The rest of it, yeah. Absolutely agreed. Electron not having a Firefox equivalent in particular strikes me as a major, multi-year... not oversight, that's far too polite. Self-ostriching? I'm continually astounded beyond words. The market is massive, and nauseatingly ripe for competitors.

Re:Apple considering dropping requirement for iPhone web bro... by Zak on Thursday December 15, 2022 @09:26AM (#33999926)
You can barely run extensions on Android Firefox. The stable version only allows "recommended" extensions, of which there are 18 and no guaranteed path to joining that club for a developer. My perception is that there was an almost-successful internal movement to kill extensions on Android entirely.