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Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by tokenadult on Saturday December 24, 2011 @04:26PM (#3389718)
I would really like to hear the reaction of patio11 and any other HN participant who lives in Japan to this story. The author of the submitted article links to his one blog in the article, and there he has an open letter to Clinton administration government official

http://www.fingleton.net/an-open-letter-to-professor-edward-...

with more details of his basis for saying that Japan's economy has been growing steadily for the last two decades.

AFTER EDIT:

In one of the funniest comment-and-reply exchanges I have ever seen on HN, three years ago biohacker42 asked, "Anyone here lived through the Japan depression care to share their experiences with us?"

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=328819

and then hugh replied, "It was terrible. People were forced to eat raw fish for sustenance. They couldn't get full-sized electronics, so they were forced to make tiny ones. Unable to afford proper entertainment, folks would make do by taking turns to get up and sing songs."

Since then, I've been much less worried about Japan, which continues to be a very prosperous country. But today I'd glad to be updated on the situation in Japan, and what the "lost decades" really mean for people who live there, if anything.

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by po on Saturday December 24, 2011 @10:58PM (#3390400)
I live in Tokyo and my business partner Jason and I organize Hacker News meetups every month or so. Usually patio11 takes the time to jump on a shinkansen and make the trip to join us. I myself have been coming to Japan to visit relatives for a while but have only been living here for two years now.

Keep in mind that this article was written right before the earthquake/tsunami. I read this article when it came out and it seemed plausible to me at the time. One big reason is that Japanese people are not the 'toot my own horn' type and if they were doing quite well, they would probably just tell you that they're only getting by. Not in an attempt to fool you, but because it isn't respected to speak about yourself that way.

Of course, there are also a lot of problems in Japan as well. The demographics are not great (in my town they will pay you a subsidy if you have kids), the younger generation is doing a lot more temp work and doesn't have the security that their parents had, and people are showing frustration toward politicians in ways they haven't before. The rural parts of Japan have seen decline as younger people wish to move to the city. I have a friend out in the country who says that half of the buildings in his town are empty and will never be filled again. I think many places in the world are facing these kinds of pressures though.

I live in a nice part of tokyo so I can't speak for all of Japan but I find the living conditions to be quite nice. It is young, energetic, and lively. Everyone talks about how much debt Japan has but at least they use it to build nice things. The train system is absolutely amazing. Everything is earthquake-proof and bolted down. They have been working on the road by my house for almost six years and when you realize what they are doing it's quite amazing. They're putting several lanes of traffic underground (boston big-dig style) and while the total work is slow, everyday there is activity, traffic is rerouted, people are moving things around, and the quality of work is absolutely stunning.

I am always shocked by stores that sell services that I can't imagine being profitable. A small shop selling house slippers. A store selling tatami mats. A little gift shop. I don't really understand how they stay in business but here they are. It's one of the biggest metropolis areas in the world and it still has a small-town feel. I still can't say I understand it all.

Overall, I think viewing Japan through a western lens can be hard. I would be pretty suspicious of any foreign reporting on the state of the country just because the measuring stick will be different. You could say that there were 'lost decades' in that it is obvious that Japan will not be leading the world economies the way they were in the past. However, as an island nation, I don't think there is much sense of disappointment that they haven't expanded their economic reach. I think the people here seem pretty satisfied with the slow growth they have seen. I think when Japanese people dream of success, they want to be well known and respected in Japan. I think playing on the world stage is less of a concern.

But then again, I don't know. My view on all of this changes all the time. Macroeconomics are complex so the lessons learned from one country don't always apply to another.

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by nu23 on Sunday December 25, 2011 @12:07AM (#3390488)
> It's one of the biggest metropolis areas in the world and it still has a small-town feel.

Offtopic, but this is something that was very striking when I watched, what is one of my favorite TV shows, http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Haikei,_Chichiue-sama. The show is set in Tokyo, and centers around the lives of people who run a ryotei restauarant. It has beautiful shots of the streets, and it feels very much like a small town. The whole atmosphere feels so classical that at some point in the show when some of the characters are inside a car with a modern GPS system, it feels bit surprising and one realizes that this is actually happening sometime around 2005.

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by muyuu on Sunday December 25, 2011 @02:22AM (#3390638)
I think the demographics bit is another point taken backwards.

At some point, all societies will have to face a stable/decreasing population pattern. The later, the more severely they will have to face this situation. Japan has done it without falling to pieces.

From my point of view the demographics of Japan ARE great.

In 1, 2 or 3 generations time we will see (whoever lives to see it) what happens to ever-rapidly-growing demographic areas. I suspect it isn't going to be pretty if they wait until they hit a hard limit to stop.

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by eru on Sunday December 25, 2011 @06:55AM (#3390897)
> In 1, 2 or 3 generations time we will see (whoever lives to see it) what happens to ever-rapidly-growing demographic areas. I suspect it isn't going to be pretty if they wait until they hit a hard limit to stop.

Much of Europe used to have developing country demographics in the 19th century. They didn't hit a hard population limit.

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by muyuu on Monday December 26, 2011 @03:11PM (#3393806)
The hard limits will come imposed for resources that are not necessarily local. We live on the fact that most of the world lags behind. But in terms of consumption, they are catching up.
Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by momo-reina on Sunday December 25, 2011 @12:41AM (#3390524)
Where do you guys organize the meetups? I'll be moving to Osaka in February but would love to come down and hang every now and then.
Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by po on Sunday December 25, 2011 @03:54AM (#3390730)
We do our meetups in Tokyo, usually nakameguro. If you want, sign up to the mailing list or subscribe to our blog RSS where we announce them. We submit the blog article to Hacker News but sometimes it doesn't make the front page so it's more reliable to be on the list:

http://www.makeleaps.jp/blog/en

Hope to see you there.

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by minikomi on Sunday December 25, 2011 @10:48AM (#3391134)
Sorry..off topic .. Do you speak of yamate-dori? I have a hunch we may live close by.
Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by po on Monday December 26, 2011 @07:57AM (#3392826)
Ha, yes that's the one. I live near yoyogihachiman eki. Hi neighbor!
Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by minikomi on Monday December 26, 2011 @10:19PM (#3394674)
Greets from a-high in Hatagaya
Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by dshaw002 on Sunday December 25, 2011 @11:51AM (#3391206)
I lived in Japan for two years in a rural/semi-urban area. It was only about 2 hours from Tokyo, so I have seen the difference between urban and rural life.

Two things come to mind with this:

1) The huge divide between big business and small business. There are so many small businesses in Japan that don't scale. They run from small run-down shops run by old people to super-trendy, artisan shops run by young people. Most of these younger people just want to run a small artisan-type business, they're not interested in being a part of the next big thing, or going public, looking for investor backing, etc.. These businesses are essentially confined to a community and neighborhood. The largest I've seen is one that spreads across the prefecture.

On the other end, you have the zaibatsu/keiretsu, which are run by oligarchies (Mitsubishi, etc.). A lot of young businesses talent is driven to these companies because they run essentially everything. I feel like this is what's driving the economy, and it's also not a part of the consciousness of the everyday Japanese person.

2) Japan's global stance. Japan is very traditional and modern in very awkward and confusing ways. People may have high definition TVs, but they live in hundred-year old houses with antiquated heating systems.

A friend once told me that Japan may be inefficient or wrong in some ways, but Japanese people like it and want it that way, and they are willing to work hard for it.

I feel like maybe the whole Japanese economic boom was some type of fluke. It was an odd advantage that a naturally introverted society had, and the economy is just going back to the way it was always supposed to be. I don't know if they're supposed to have a large economy, or really want one if it comes with a certain price.

Do you guys get what I'm saying?

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by cdavid on Sunday December 25, 2011 @07:57AM (#3390959)
I don't think living in Japan makes you especially more able to comment on the issue. Most foreigners are concentrated in a few areas, and it tends to be mostly anecdotal. It does help you to avoid having misconceptions for things that cannot be easily measured, though (this was especially striking during the march 2011 tsunami and Fukushima events).

As mentioned by others, trade surplus or worse currency "power" are about as meaningless as you can be. Those are related to typical misconceptions and bias (mercantilism, etc...). About one year ago, there was a much more convincing article about the Japan myth: http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/gros18/English. The gdp growth figures show a much better story than they do if you only take into account the workforce (it basically outdid both Europe and the US). Also, there is still a largely unused part of the population for economical growth: women.

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by MikeMacMan on Saturday December 24, 2011 @11:12PM (#3390414)
- The recession disproportionately affected rural Japan. In Tokyo you see lots of shopping and commerce. However, prefectures in places like Kyushu have unemployment rates above 10%

- An entire generation of baby-boomers working as middle-manager types got highly-inflated mortgages during the bubble, only to be downsized or have their pay/benefits cut in the aftermath. These people have been hit very hard.

- I'm not sure of the latest numbers, but Japan has a deficit problem that rivals the US. As a % of GDP it might be worse.

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by sounds on Saturday December 24, 2011 @06:55PM (#3390038)
I don't live in Japan. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

So for me the article presents a non-falsifiable claim: Japan is doing better than ever. However, his claims could be checked by someone in a Japanese manufacturing company.

In the meantime, I don't see why it is surprising that Japan is doing well. As a nation they have positioned themselves well. The major challenge they face -- lack of natural resources -- has not materially affected their growth in the last 20 years. Instead, they are continuing to focus on the entire manufacturing vertical. Not just steel mills and consumer brands (ok, I'm making the U.S. seem dumber than they are).

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by andrewpi on Saturday December 24, 2011 @10:05PM (#3390326)
I would argue that the major challenge Japan faces is the demographic trends in that country. Japan is rapidly getting older and is very hesitant to allow immigration to fill the gap. Eventually a very small number of workers will be forced to support a massive number of retired citizens.
Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by yzhengyu on Sunday December 25, 2011 @04:46AM (#3390783)
This is the same argument that the leaders of my country, Singapore, foisted on us, that we need to have immigration to "close the gap", so-to-speak.

This was in the late 1990's, then they began a program of liberalized immigration which now in 2011, sees over 30% of Singapore's resident population as foreigners. The influx of so many immigrants over two decades has caused severe strains upon the fabric of our country, a tiny island city-state.

Yet the story remains the same. The new immigrants are unlikely to suddenly produce more children [say three or more] and ironically, if they stay on, they will simply add on the the oncoming demographic crunch since they are mostly working class, and we all know how that particular segment of society is assaulted by growing inequality around the world.

[Most amusing, the incumbent political party which has governed Singapore since our independence has largely expended all its political capital. But that's not really relevant to our discussion on aging + demographics]

I suspect Britons in the U.K can tell a similar story, since Blair & co went on a similar tilt after they got in a decade ago.

Thus, I would caution against the popular view that immigration is needed to avoid the oncoming demographic crunch in societies. It probably can't fix the old issue, and instead generate many huge socio-political issues.

Re:The Myth of Japan's lost Decade by andersh on Sunday December 25, 2011 @12:36AM (#3390518)
Japan should stick to trying to fix the problem with technology, since immigration will never, logically, solve any such demographic problem. They should stand as an interesting counterexample.