News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:You might not need a CRDT by josephg on Monday December 05, 2022 @06:11PM (#33873281)
Right, but the problem is that most programmers don't want to reason about this stuff. The danger is that things will feel like they "just work" locally (when there's no concurrent edits) and then go potentially off the rails when actual users start editing together.

We can solve this by educating developers and giving them different merge strategies to use, but I worry that most devs won't bother most of the time. So long as the merge resolution is good enough, they'll just shrug and accept it.

That said, most collaborative editing happens online. People don't really go offline while editing a google doc with other people. Its fine if two people put their cursor in the same location - they won't edit at the same time, because that would be weird.

And with deep JSON structures, so long as the structure itself can stay intact and parsable, users will usually work on different things to avoid weird editing conflicts. Imagine a giant 3D world (like an MMO) full of lots of objects and scenery. And a team working on building out that world. Artists will probably work on different things, in different areas or different parts of the terrain. Or if they're working on the same thing, they'll do it live & online.

The one big area of CRDT research I'd love to see more of is offline conflict resolution - which should be different than online conflict resolution. Git has the right idea - I want merge conflicts when things are merged together. CRDTs have a superset of the information that git has. We have all the information we need in Yjs / automerge / etc to be able to notice merge conflicts and do whatever we want with them. But as far as I know, nobody has built something like Git on top of a CRDT yet which uses this information to create merge conflicts in a sensible way.

With the CRDT I'm building, for registers I've decided to use MVRegisters (so if multiple writes happen, we keep all conflicting values and can expose that conflict state through the API). But also have a "simple API" which picks an arbitrary, consistent winner so when developers don't care (or when they're making an MVP of their app) everything will still work fine. The (discarded) conflicting values will be in the history anyway if they want to recover it later.

Re:You might not need a CRDT by lewisjoe on Monday December 05, 2022 @08:45PM (#33874788)
Yes, offline edits tend to generate larger units of delta. The larger the deltas, the more difficult or even impossible it is to merge with a sensible outcome for all parties. Falling back to manual merging will be an useful feature.

But wouldn't this mean the CRDT will be an evergrowing set like git? Is this even practical like when say, working with a thousand page book? To me it looks like it breaks the possibility of garbage collecting portions of CRDT which will make it harder to adopt in real-world apps.

Re:You might not need a CRDT by josephg on Monday December 05, 2022 @08:56PM (#33874874)
> Is this even practical like when say, working with a thousand page book?

Remarkably, yeah its fine in practice. I've done a lot of work on this recently, doing crazy optimized bit packing for text CRDT data. The numbers are wild - all the metadata (insert positions, versions, etc) ends up only accounting for a few % of the final file size. Almost all of the final file size is the inserted characters themselves. And this is still true for files with complex editing histories (eg reconstructed from git repositories).

Diamond types does LZ4 compression of the inserted text data. In most of my examples, I save more bytes on disk by LZ4 compressing the text than I spend storing all the CRDT metadata. So the file on disk (with full history and change tracking) often ends up smaller than the final document.