You have absolutely no idea what, or rather: who, you are talking about: I'm the second most active committer to FreeBSDs kernel over the project lifetime and I'm the author of Varnish, I even have C-code running in ATC systems, heck when it comes to that: My code scrambles your password.

It's exactly because I am responsible for so much old code that I say we should not cripple the future for it.

First off, I didn't realize. I'm sorry.

     I am responsible for so much old code that 
     I say we should not cripple the future for it.

I had to read that a few times. Are you advocating a clean break so that whatever that is future is clearly not called C or even purports to be backwards compatible with C? That would be difficult wouldn't it? It simply wouldn't get traction.

I'm not sure I have a coherent proposal. Clearly ISO-C is a cul-de-sac by now, and will have to be ditched. What we should replace it with is not clear to me.

It is a big problem that so many standards, requirements and tools (from EMACS to Coverity over lint) have their fingers in the C-syntax. The autocrap abomination is a further complication.

So I guess a good place to start is to swear that we will never touch or use the botched ISO-C thread API, and beat some sense into the WG14, by whatever means are available.

Perhaps the only place for C to go is for a final consolidation specification, which will be frozen for 50 years. You might even remove some broken parts of previous specifications, but with 50 years of stability, it gives a lot of confidence that any work would be worthwhile.

A long period of stability may also make it easy for C to interact with other languages. I'm out of my depth here. Some standard specifications for pinning memory from garbage collection, if Scheme could specify TCO, perhaps C-consolidation release could improve its toolability for things like Coverity; A better autoconf; Makefiles; Standard compilation error codes; Something that would clean up all the rough edges in supporting C compilers.

Do you think a new language (Go, maybe?) will take C's place, given your distaste for ISO's handling of the standard?

Dead post from ballard:

ballard 3 hours ago | link [dead]

Java was an over-reaction to C.

Go was a reaction to Java back to almost center.

C is close to hardware, which is important for things like game engine cores, video drivers, varnish and the list of use-cases goes on and on.

Finally, people tend to complain about their tools even when those tools work. Be thankful if you didn't have to write the tool yourself. But if you would feel compelled to complain, write a better one yourself first instead. :)

@phk: When was the last time you wrote inline asm in C to solve any problem on an non-embedded system? Mine was 1996.

Last time I wrote inline ASM was 2 days ago. I'm a kernel programmer, remember ?

Just curious: what was it for? Link to public commit etc would also be ok. Thx. I was the impression that all the asm code was abstracted away in rarely-changing header file macros?

I doubt any language will replace C ever, given the penetration it has, but maybe we could get a better C2X than the crap C1X seems to be. It would require a significant fraction of programmers to agree with me that C1X is crap in the first place.

I am mostly a Python programmer who still remembers C and I won't say "crap".

I will, however, say "ugly".

how true is it that one reason C is increasingly unlikely to be replaced is that cpus these days specifically optimise the performance of C-compiler-generated code?

phk under 30? hahaha. Does freebsd count as an old code base?

If you direct your remarks at what's being said instead of who (you think) is saying it, you wouldn't miss so wildly.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Sometimes who someone is, is a decisive factor in what arguments they present. It can give them a valuable jolt of insight to point out that they present those arguments because they are missing part of the view. Of course you should also explain why the arguments in themselves are wrong, but the main argument may be "you've never experienced X; those that have tend to argue Y, because of Z"

Age discrimination just makes you look like a fool.

It's very easy to make those arguments just by saying "From my experience doing X, you're wrong because..." without speculating about what the other person hasn't done.

on the contrary, I find communicating in this way a rather reliable method of talking in short hand. I was happy to be wrong, since phk illuminated another reason why some people may advocate breaking compatibility, and it is easy to get to his core arguments once his credentials were established.