Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature
by Spivak on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @01:43PM
(#33709351)
> How do you propose to keep me out of women's spaces when I can just say "I'm a woman too"?
Pick whatever criteria makes you comfortable -- documented history of gender dysphoria, psych evals from multiple doctors, a minimum number of years being "out" and living socially transitioned. It's not like it's impossible to determine whether someone is trans or not. In most states that's literally what happens when someone goes to court to change their gender marker. You need doctor's sign off that you are trans and have finished your transition.
> Males can't be females.
We're in total agreement about this up to the definition of male and female. This is what I mean when I say it's not a choice.
> Trans women can still impregnate females
I really don't understand why you care so much about impregnation, you mention it multiple times. There are men who are infertile, hell there are trans men with vaginas. Neither should be allowed in women's spaces.
> Not the feelings part, that's internal, but the being female now. Without that being strongly factual the rest falls apart
Again I don't really disagree with you. We clearly just have two different readings of the science.
> It acts like a social contagion
You have the observation right but explanation wrong. The number of trans people is increasing, but it's because of a combination of it being socially acceptable to be trans and come out, and people who were suffering with gender dysphoria are now realizing that's what it is and getting help. See the graph of left handed people over time -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/09/l... -- wanna guess when we stopped forcing kids to be right handed?
> And as the sports debacle shows, are just as big and strong as normal men.
This is a yes and no situation. Yes, women with high T will be bigger and stronger. Which is why sports clubs have minimum times on HRT for trans women to compete. And if it turns out that the current requirements aren't enough we can make them stricter, we can have trans women to shed all muscle while on HRT and then build it back. Trans men ought to be the counterexample because they are bigger, stronger, and out-compete women.
> I don't think you're gaining support when you use it.
You're right, probably not but the parallels are uncanny, especially when it comes to the use of crime statistics. If you put yourself in the mindset of someone who believes that trans women are women and then look at what the opposition looks like it's remarkably like the era of Jim Crow and separate but equal.
> by putting in the very people who abuse them
Again, totally agree with you up to the definition. You're lumping a group of women in with the male abusers and then saying obviously we can't have them around. In your world, what do you do with trans men in this situation?
> I understand that they are mad but I do not give their feelings any weight. I see rape victims as needing 100% control over who they talk to.
I agree with you on this with no notes. If someone doesn't want to see anyone as a counselor they shouldn't have to. If someone being in the rotation means victims are forced to see them, trans or not, that's a problem. The thing I take issue with, and I think the women did as well, is the presumption that victims wouldn't want to see her.
> with someone who resembles their rapist
Ugh, this is always what it boils down to. You mentioned it earlier in the post when you said "large male-bodied." People get this idea in their heads that all trans women look like linebackers. It's no wonder so many trans women spend so much time, effort, and money on passing as cisgender, and in particular starving themselves to be smaller. If a rape victim, trans or not, is triggered because their counselor physically resembles their assailant, trans or not, then they're probably not a good fit.
> males harassing, threatening, beating, and sexually molesting the females in shelters.
That's horrible and exactly why female only shelters are needed. No woman, trans or not, should have to be the victim of that.
This discussion is so frustrating because I agree with you in almost everything.
Pick whatever criteria makes you comfortable -- documented history of gender dysphoria, psych evals from multiple doctors, a minimum number of years being "out" and living socially transitioned. It's not like it's impossible to determine whether someone is trans or not. In most states that's literally what happens when someone goes to court to change their gender marker. You need doctor's sign off that you are trans and have finished your transition.
> Males can't be females.
We're in total agreement about this up to the definition of male and female. This is what I mean when I say it's not a choice.
> Trans women can still impregnate females
I really don't understand why you care so much about impregnation, you mention it multiple times. There are men who are infertile, hell there are trans men with vaginas. Neither should be allowed in women's spaces.
> Not the feelings part, that's internal, but the being female now. Without that being strongly factual the rest falls apart
Again I don't really disagree with you. We clearly just have two different readings of the science.
> It acts like a social contagion
You have the observation right but explanation wrong. The number of trans people is increasing, but it's because of a combination of it being socially acceptable to be trans and come out, and people who were suffering with gender dysphoria are now realizing that's what it is and getting help. See the graph of left handed people over time -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/09/l... -- wanna guess when we stopped forcing kids to be right handed?
> And as the sports debacle shows, are just as big and strong as normal men.
This is a yes and no situation. Yes, women with high T will be bigger and stronger. Which is why sports clubs have minimum times on HRT for trans women to compete. And if it turns out that the current requirements aren't enough we can make them stricter, we can have trans women to shed all muscle while on HRT and then build it back. Trans men ought to be the counterexample because they are bigger, stronger, and out-compete women.
> I don't think you're gaining support when you use it.
You're right, probably not but the parallels are uncanny, especially when it comes to the use of crime statistics. If you put yourself in the mindset of someone who believes that trans women are women and then look at what the opposition looks like it's remarkably like the era of Jim Crow and separate but equal.
> by putting in the very people who abuse them
Again, totally agree with you up to the definition. You're lumping a group of women in with the male abusers and then saying obviously we can't have them around. In your world, what do you do with trans men in this situation?
> I understand that they are mad but I do not give their feelings any weight. I see rape victims as needing 100% control over who they talk to.
I agree with you on this with no notes. If someone doesn't want to see anyone as a counselor they shouldn't have to. If someone being in the rotation means victims are forced to see them, trans or not, that's a problem. The thing I take issue with, and I think the women did as well, is the presumption that victims wouldn't want to see her.
> with someone who resembles their rapist
Ugh, this is always what it boils down to. You mentioned it earlier in the post when you said "large male-bodied." People get this idea in their heads that all trans women look like linebackers. It's no wonder so many trans women spend so much time, effort, and money on passing as cisgender, and in particular starving themselves to be smaller. If a rape victim, trans or not, is triggered because their counselor physically resembles their assailant, trans or not, then they're probably not a good fit.
> males harassing, threatening, beating, and sexually molesting the females in shelters.
That's horrible and exactly why female only shelters are needed. No woman, trans or not, should have to be the victim of that.
This discussion is so frustrating because I agree with you in almost everything.