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Re:The End of Libertarianism: The financial collapse proves ... by netcan on Sunday October 19, 2008 @12:17AM (#336887)
I think the analogy is a little deeper the just a veneer. At least that is the accusation made here.

For one thing, the concept of 'communism' according to Marx is a stateless, classless society. Since communist states were 'states' & ruled by parties which were very similar to a ruling 'class,' I thnk we can call this grounds for appeal.

The problem is underlying. Any political theory that needs to be implemented completely, can't be judged based on its components. This means that unless you have a perfect specimen, you can't draw conclusions about its validity from reality.

To the communist in question, abolishing individual ownership, collective production, land reform, command economy, etc. might fail, but that doesn't disprove communism. It doesn't even disprove those strategies. They are only expected to succeed within a perfectly Marxist state. The fact that a state would have been better off not implementing any of those policies, is no deterrent.

To the libertarian in question, deregulated financial markets, corporate autonomy, free markets, etc. etc. might fail, but that doesn't disprove libertarianism. It doesn't even disprove those strategies. They are only expected to succeed within a perfectly libertarian system.

The question is: would the US/Iceland/UK have been better off under more regulated financial markets? If your answer is 'yes, but...if only they were even more regulated & trade was unrestricted &..,' then the analogy is about as strong as these sorts of analogies can get.

Re:The End of Libertarianism: The financial collapse proves ... by hugh on Sunday October 19, 2008 @11:31AM (#337114)
For one thing, the concept of 'communism' according to Marx is a stateless, classless society. Since communist states were 'states' & ruled by parties which were very similar to a ruling 'class,' I thnk we can call this grounds for appeal.

The big difference: the USSR was a "communist" country in that it was ruled by the Communist Party, its leaders went around proclaiming it was a communist country, and most outside communist-sympathising observers would have said at the time that it was communist.

The US has never been a libertarian country, in that the Libertarian party has never been in power, its leaders have never gone around proclaiming it to be a libertarian country, and foreign libertarian-sympathising observers (e.g. me) would never have said it was libertarian.

The question is: would the US/Iceland/UK have been better off under more regulated financial markets?

Actually I think the question is: would the US/Iceland/UK have been better off under differently regulated financial markets? And the answer is almost certainly yes, which leads to the question of precisely what kind of regulation is most sensible. Simply saying "we need more regulation" is a terrible idea, since many possible new regulations are likely to be useless or counterproductive.

Re:The End of Libertarianism: The financial collapse proves ... by Prrometheus on Sunday October 19, 2008 @01:35AM (#336932)
The existence of some facets of the financial system that were not controlled by the state hardly implies that more state control would have stopped the current crisis. Nor does it imply that less state control would have stopped it. However, I have yet to hear a single new regulation that did not require 20/20 foresight that we could have pursued to avert the credit collapse that we have recently suffered.

Our economy is very mixed. Large portions of private money, semi-private money, and government money were sloshing about in the financial sector prior to the credit crisis. Blaming "libertarianism" or "government" for it is silly. Deeper analysis and more careful thought is needed in dissecting the lessons from recent events in the market. Causal links must be proposed and evaluated.

Also, I personally don't claim that libertarianism can only work in an unadulterated form. I think rather free markets work pretty damn well now, and that most of them would work better without tinkering from central planners. I don't think you could design an economic order without macroeconomic fluctuations, free or planned. I also don't think any regulator will be smart enough to design an optimal regulation scheme, or that one necessarily exists for a dynamic economy.

Re:The End of Libertarianism: The financial collapse proves ... by netcan on Sunday October 19, 2008 @04:29AM (#336975)
My personal opinion isn't interesting really. Neither is the author of this article's.

What is interesting is public opinion. That seems to have swung away from deregulation. It is (rightly or wrongly) being blamed for this. In many circles (more so outside The States, I think), non-intervention is tolerated because it works, supposedly. A lot of people have accepted that while it is unfair, unsavoury, & generally unpleasant, but it works. Now it doesn't always work.

Re:The End of Libertarianism: The financial collapse proves ... by Prrometheus on Sunday October 19, 2008 @02:51PM (#337227)
I suppose you're right. However, public opinion has been largely formed by the opinions of the regulators. I have never known a regulator to want less power, so libertarians are fighting a lost cause. That's ok, we're used to it.

As far as the rest of the world goes, European economic courses focus on the evils of the market and Marxist models of class struggle, so they're pretty much a lost cause too.

Re:The End of Libertarianism: The financial collapse proves ... by netcan on Sunday October 19, 2008 @06:40PM (#337346)
public opinion has been largely formed by the opinions of the regulators. I have never known a regulator to want less power, so libertarians are fighting a lost cause.

I don't think that's fair. I think the public's opinion is being reflected from the sentiment in the public debate around the world. Politicians, central bankers, academics, big name investors, etc. The specifics of interventions (proposed laws for bailouts) have been supported by public figures usually on the libertarian side of the policy (eg Rupert Murdoch). It's true, they've still stuck to their respective positions: John McCain is still more of a libertarian then Obama, Hugo Chavez hasn't moved much, etc. Die hards are still dies hards. But, the whole debate has shifted left.

This is very likely to bring with it other changes. I complain about people looking at the political spectrum simplistically just like anyone else. Left on A shouldn't mean left on B. But in reality, these things seem to be associated.

Re:The End of Libertarianism: The financial collapse proves ... by nazgulnarsil on Sunday October 19, 2008 @02:55AM (#336950)
Any political theory that needs to be implemented completely, can't be judged based on its components.

You can construct lots of internally consistent ideologies that would be perfectly stable in a vacuum. The difficult part is making one that can survive when put into competition with other ideologies and still be benevolent. Any survival of the fittest type selection will tend to favor nasty traits such as xenophobia.

Re:The End of Libertarianism: The financial collapse proves ... by elai on Sunday October 19, 2008 @07:07PM (#337369)
You know that iceland is not a large country in the very least. It's population aprox ~300'000. It's like saying like a small bank that was popular in the town of victoria, canada failed recently.