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Re:Map of the Universe by DiogenesKynikos on Friday November 18, 2022 @12:56PM (#33658772)
Indeed, the Cosmic Microwave Background is the light that's still left over from a time when the Universe was much hotter and filled with plasma. At a certain point, the Universe cooled down enough to become neutral, which made it mostly transparent, and allowed the photons that had been bouncing around in the plasma to travel indefinitely.

> its distance is also not limited by light travel distance

At cosmological scales, there is no single, correct definition of "distance." There is coordinate distance, light travel distance, angular diameter distance, luminosity distance, and other measures.[0] All these distances are the same at very small scales, but when you start looking at larger scales, General Relativity starts to matter and the geometry of the Universe is no longer Euclidean.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_measure

Re:Map of the Universe by dimator on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:09PM (#33659031)
wow, your last paragraph filled a little empty gap in my brain, thank you!
Re:Map of the Universe by sigmoid10 on Friday November 18, 2022 @05:32PM (#33663458)
On a global scale, the universe as a whole is actually remarkably close to euclidean [1] (which is a mystery of its own). So it's not curvature that's the problem, but expansion. To account for this, people usually quote the comoving distance [2] (which factors out expansion) when talking about very distant things like the microwave background.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe

[2] see your own source

Re:Map of the Universe by DiogenesKynikos on Friday November 18, 2022 @06:58PM (#33664788)
Only a constant-coordinate-time slice of the Universe is Euclidean. That's a 3D subspace of the 4D spacetime volume. The 4D metric of the Universe is not close to flat (or Minkowski, which is the closest thing you'll get to Euclidean in Relativity).

People quote different distances, depending on what they're using it for. Probably the most widely used distance measure, from Earth's perspective, is redshift. It's linear with distance nearby, and ask the other distances are relatively simple functions of it.

Re:Map of the Universe by sigmoid10 on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:39AM (#33668976)
>The 4D metric of the Universe is not close to flat (or Minkowski, which is the closest thing you'll get to Euclidean in Relativity)

It is. See the source provided above.

Re:Map of the Universe by DiogenesKynikos on Saturday November 19, 2022 @08:11AM (#33669746)
I'm well aware of what the FLRW metric looks like. That a(t) factor means that the geometry of spacetime is not flat. For a full explanation, see this StackExchange answer: [0].

You're confusing the flatness of a particular 3D hypersurface (of constant coordinate time) with flatness of 4D spacetime. The k parameter describes the curvature of that hypersurface, not the curvature of spacetime.

This is all to say that we don't live in a flat Minkowski spacetime. We live in a curved spacetime, which means that things like distance measures are much less straightforward. The curvature of 3D slices of spacetime is not the primary complication - the overall curvature of 4D spacetime (which involves the scale factor a(t)) is the primary complication.

0. https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/689320

Re:Map of the Universe by sigmoid10 on Saturday November 19, 2022 @08:38AM (#33669917)
When looking at spatial distances, we look at spatial coordinates. Note that there are no cross terms with a(t) in the metric, so the expansion factor (which is divided out if you look at the definition of comoving distance) can easily be accounted for. No curvature shenanigans necessary. Ofc that also implies looking at a single cosmological time, which in turn simplifies the whole idea of distances across cosmological scales, which is why it is so commonly used. All of this is explained pretty well on wikipedia, but if you want you can also take a look at Hartle's or Carroll's textbooks on General Relativity.
Re:Map of the Universe by DiogenesKynikos on Saturday November 19, 2022 @03:06PM (#33674085)
> When looking at spatial distances, we usually want to look at spatial coordinates.

That's not the case, because most objects we're measuring distances to are not at the same coordinate time as us. In fact, these objects are generally in the past.

If you're trying to measure the distance to an object that you've observed, that object is, in fact, along your past light cone. The only coordinate-invariant distance that one can actually define, the metric distance, is zero. That means you have to define an alternate type of distance. Some of those choices (like the comoving distance) don't depend on a(t), while some do (like the light travel distance).

> All of this is explained pretty well on wikipedia, but if you want you can also take a look at Hartle's or Carroll's textbooks on General Relativity.

I prefer Wald, which is much more mathematically rigorous than Carroll. I haven't read Hartle, so I can't comment on it.

Re:Map of the Universe by chrisweekly on Friday November 18, 2022 @08:11PM (#33665515)
"global" in your first sentence was a tough word choice
Re:Map of the Universe by sigmoid10 on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:37AM (#33668965)
It's a common term in mathematics and when talking about field theories.
Re:Map of the Universe by chrisweekly on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @01:27PM (#33709106)
I know. But context matters. When talking about distance and scale and the physical universe, "global" will be read as "planetary" by many. (shrug, no big deal)