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Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by 6nf on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @08:37PM (#33541024)
We had a VR excitement 'bubble' in the 90s. Loads of headsets came out, games supporting them, etc. It all died out within a few years. I guess people like Mark thought the reason for the die out was that the tech wasn't there yet. But the reality is that VR is not the future, people just don't want it. Nobody wants to live their entire waking / working life in a VR headset. But that seems to be what Mark is working towards. He's thinking people will choose to work together via VR rather than just plain old video conferencing.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by kevmo314 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @08:42PM (#33541057)
> But the reality is that VR is not the future, people just don't want it. Nobody wants to live their entire waking / working life in a VR headset.

This keeps getting repeated but aside from "it's not the status quo", I see little evidence for it. I'm sure nobody wanted to spend their entire waking and working life sitting in front of a computer screen back when PCs came out and yet here we are...

In the off chance that VR does work out, Meta's going to be a huge benefactor.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by 6nf on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @08:54PM (#33541142)
>I see little evidence for it.

Besides the fact that only 50 people are in the Metaverse right now? Literally nobody is using VR for meetings and work and stuff. Nobody likes being cut off from all real human interactions. At least with a video call I can see your face and you can see mine. VR? it's just voice chat with a stupid headset.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by jhou2 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:23PM (#33541398)
Absolutely. After covid, people are craving physical contact and outdoor activities. Travel and tourism is trending up. This idea that people want to put on a headset and stay indoors, netflix and chill or whatever is not happening. Maybe the niche hackernews/reddit crowd might prefer to avoid social contact and put on a VR headset, but I'm not seeing that in the local restaurants, bars, shopping malls, concerts, and theatres. They are crowded.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by zip1234 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:02PM (#33541218)
These are all problems that people are working on. There is no reason they cannot be solved.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by rurp on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:10PM (#33541289)
A few 10s of billions of dollars along with a bunch of super smart people haven't made much of a dent, so I don't think vague assurances are going to cut it. Nobody can predict what technology will be like in a few decades, but I don't see any reason to be particularly bullish on VR. At this rate, even if it does happen at some point, Meta likely won't be around to see it.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by ianbutler on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:53PM (#33541609)
They've literally made massive progress inside of 5 years. I don't know that we're watching the same space.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by rurp on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:49PM (#33554736)
The goal is for VR to become a dominant platform and their progress has been far from massive. Some technical advancements along the way are nice, but won't matter without large numbers of users.

How many people visit the metaverse multiple times per day?

What percent of the population spends hours per day in a VR headset?

The answer to those questions needs to be much better than "miniscule" for this project to be any sort of success.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by 6nf on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:06PM (#33541254)
>> Nobody likes being cut off from all real human interactions.

> There is no reason they cannot be solved.

Explain?

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by zip1234 on Friday November 11, 2022 @08:50PM (#33569187)
The goal is not to replace human interaction, it is to replace phone calls and video chat. To make the experience better than those things is not an insurmountable task.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by squeaky-clean on Thursday November 10, 2022 @01:02AM (#33542850)
VR isn't just meta. There's 20k people in the Steam version of VRChat at the time of this comment.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by majormajor on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @08:52PM (#33541126)
Using a Quest we're clearly not there yet but we're also clearly far closer than a VirtualBoy.

Saying we'll "never" get there, or that we couldn't get this into sunglasses-weight, does seem unrealistic. If joining a meeting was as easy as dropping on a pair of glasses, and I could "focus" on (virtually) further-away objects instead of just a computer screen in front of me, it would be pretty powerfully appealing.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by 6nf on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @08:58PM (#33541187)
Joining a meeting right now is as easy as clicking on 'join' on your phone or laptop. I can then see everyone in the meeting and they can see my facial expressions etc. VR doesn't add anything useful and removes a lot of social cues visible on video (or in person). I don't see why I'd accept employees joining a meeting using an avatar instead of showing up 'in person' (on video).
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by majormajor on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:06PM (#33541253)
You're arguing about the experience today, not what it could be. I definitely don't want avatars.

I want this meeting to have higher immersion representations of the rest of the people in the meeting than boxes on a screen. I want to be able to shift my view to focus more on individuals. I want to be able to have a meeting with 40 people where I could still focus on a single person and see them with high-fidelity, instead of just having 20 of the boxes at low-res in front of me, with the rest off-screen. I want less eyestrain because I'm not just staring at a flat wall but my eyes are moving and shifting and re-focusing more. I want to have depth to things. I want the ability to have a quiet side convo off to the side. I want the ability to write on a whiteboard off to the side that people can look at when they want instead of taking-over the entire viewport for everybody. All things I could do in the real world, but would be very hard to make seamless without a real-world interaction model.

Again, we clearly aren't there yet. But it's easy to imagine something better than what we have today.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by 6nf on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:41PM (#33541521)
How are you going to wear a headset without compromising face to face video? I can't even imagine a theoretical solution and not a single company is working on this problem. Am I wrong? Obviously on a very long timeline you can solve this problem but the next 5 years? No way.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by majormajor on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:42PM (#33541909)
My standard for the future (10+ years out) is "if i have to hit the keyboard or click the mouse it's failed." In that case I'll definitely still want to go back to in-person collaboration.

> How are you going to wear a headset without compromising face to face video? I can't even imagine a theoretical solution and not a single company is working on this problem. Am I wrong? Obviously on a very long timeline you can solve this problem but the next 5 years? No way.

My best guess of what this would look like would be much closer to glasses than a full headset (no "sticking" to the face) with very good ultra-wide cameras + image processing to capture your face and upper body language at the same time. Maybe toss in a desktop-mounted webcam too. Not 100% immersed/blackout, but quite possibly good enough to be better than a flat monitor with also isn't 100% of your FOV.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by ianbutler on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:55PM (#33541626)
Video chats drop body language, natural speaking cues, reduces the quality of group conversations and more. VR even with some of the tech today restores a bit of that and gives the feeling of presence. I'm excited to see where we're at with it in 10 years, I agree that today we're not there.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by rsj_hn on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @08:52PM (#33541124)
That would be great if Meta was a VC fund placing hundreds of bets in the hopes of a moonshot paying off. But a (formerly) trillion dollar company placing such a big bet on such a small market is very surprising.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by _carbyau_ on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:25PM (#33541809)
This is what I have an issue with.

This is a side project. Something to make sure FB has a foot in the game for when the technologies make "it all" (whatever that is) possible.

Part of me wonders if this is a decoy - look over here! While I do something useful elsewhere.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by nordsieck on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @08:55PM (#33541157)
> But the reality is that VR is not the future, people just don't want it. Nobody wants to live their entire waking / working life in a VR headset.

I think you're wrong.

From this[1] great essay about mainframes:

> Ultimately, there are only two natural kinds of computers: embedded systems and mainframes.

And this is so true. People have moved from personal computers to laptops and are in the process of moving to phones[2]. Smart watches seem to be a promising device; we'll see if people can put enough functionality into them to obviate the need for a phone.

Of course, not all tasks are suitable to be done on a phone or a watch. But one way to think of VR is a desk setup with huge monitors that happens to be extremely portable. Of course the promise of VR is much greater than that, but that is a pretty important use case - a use case that would obviate the need for laptops and desktops for many if not most tasks.

---

1. http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Eternal_Mainframe.h...

2. This isn't to say that the shift has been complete at all. Many people, including me, continue to use a desktop setup. And laptop use is still quite strong. But the derivative is ultimately what matters.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by 6nf on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:05PM (#33541246)
It's been 20 years and NOBODY is doing business in VR even though the tech is amazing right now. What's missing? At what point do you think normal people will prefer VR over just using video conferencing for work meetings? I don't see it and I'm willing to bet money that we won't have amazing Meta VR with 100 million users in the next 5 years.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by belval on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:26PM (#33541421)
> even though the tech is amazing right now

Have you ever tried to work in VR? It's not amazing at all, my Quest 2 (which has reasonably high resolution per modern headset standard) just can't render clearly enough for me to use VSCode. I tried it and it was just not there yet. Double the pixel density and you would have something I would consider using.

I'm not necessarily convinced that we'll do all of our meetings in VR ever, but it's reasonable to say that tech still has a way to go before I'd call it as "VR is the issue".

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by doerinrw on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:22PM (#33541380)
I think Meta would disagree would disagree with the assertion "the tech is amazing right now." The two easiest problems to point to are a) resolution on most consumer headsets is far too low to read text effectively, and b) the ergonomics just aren't there in terms of weight and size.

Pretty big problems - I don't really have any argument either way on how solvable they are in 5-10 years, but I really think the implication that people dislike the concept of working in VR itself is misguided.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by CursedUrn on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:06AM (#33543202)
Size and weight has been going up over time: https://i.imgur.com/2fOAFqI.png There's no evidence we will reach the mythical lightweight glasses any time soon. I believe that is needed for VR to be accepted on a scale similar to cellphones.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by ianbutler on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:52PM (#33541600)
The tech is super early stage, having worked in VR for 6 hours a day for a month I can tell you it's very barebones. This tech is nascent, hell the oculus quest only came out in 2019.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by asadotzler on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:16AM (#33544042)
With reference to the 90s VR boom, the grandparent was calling out this very comment as demonstrably false, well before you had even posted it. What magic is that?!

For sale to consumer VR headsets have been available commercially for about 35 years. Is it really reasonable to call a consumer tech product category that's been around for 35 years "early" or "nascent"? Look at something like the EyePhone (yes, that was its name). How is that not the very same product category as a modern VR HMD? Of course a modern HMD is better, but not fundamentally a new category of device. This shit is ancient by tech standards. It's had almost 4 decades to evolve since its consumer debut.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by ianbutler on Thursday November 10, 2022 @07:57AM (#33545770)
I mean we had smartphones in the late 90's and early 2000's and they didn't take off until 2010 so yes. That's where I'd put this, now we're waiting for VR's iPhone moment.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by squeaky-clean on Thursday November 10, 2022 @12:57AM (#33542828)
The tech is amazing for us VR enthusiasts, but I don't think it's really at the point where it can impress the average person beyond a short whale demo or beatsaber game. You're either tethered to a wire, or a 3 hour battery life (Which degrades pretty quickly). Resolution still isn't good enough for reading text at a reasonable scale. Narrow field of view. Hot to wear. The fact that they are fixed-focus creates some weird depth perception issues in many people for up to 48 hours after use until you get your "vr legs".
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by anonred on Thursday November 10, 2022 @01:35AM (#33543027)
What is your definition of “a user”? Is it a daily/weekly/monthly active account, or based on activated device?
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by scythe on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:22PM (#33542166)
>And this is so true. People have moved from personal computers to laptops and are in the process of moving to phones[2]. Smart watches seem to be a promising device; we'll see if people can put enough functionality into them to obviate the need for a phone.

One of these shifts is not like the other. The laptop can, in principle, do everything the desktop can. The speakers and mousepad are kind of limited, but peripherals erase this barrier too. A phone simply doesn't have the text input rate of a keyboard, which I'm feeling intimately right now as I tap out this comment with my right thumb. Strap a keyboard to the phone, now the screen is too far away. It might as well be a laptop.

You can run a business on laptops. Currently, businesses still use desktops mostly because they're still significantly cheaper at equivalent performance (and maybe harder to steal). But on phones? That's nowhere near practical. The keyboard has yet to be disrupted; voice input is antisocial unless you have your own office.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by ianbutler on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:51PM (#33541592)
Video conferencing sucks. It's so much worse than a conversation with physical or simulated physical presence. I'd much rather have that sense of presence and having experienced that in VR I can say if the tech improves people will likely go for it.

You lose so many cues, tells and deep interactions that you get with a physical presence via video call. I have seen VR start to solve some of these and I think it will be pretty big if we get to the point where the cartoony graphics are ditched.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by VectorLock on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:08PM (#33541688)
What visual cues or tells would you LOSE with a video call, but maintain with an abstract avatar?
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by ianbutler on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:11PM (#33541709)
Body language is the most obvious. You don't even need very expressive avatars before certain things we naturally do in person become useful tells. I've had multiple conversations in VR, they flow much more naturally than video chats based on the sense of presence.

The quest pro just added expression tracking as well so now you have body language and normal emotional expressions. Wayyyyyyy more natural feeling than video chats, even if I'm seeing an avatar of someone and not their actual face.

Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by VectorLock on Friday November 11, 2022 @02:10PM (#33565270)
Okay Mark. I'm sure body language and facial expression from an avatar is better than video of the actual person...
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by ianbutler on Saturday November 12, 2022 @05:24PM (#33577775)
Clearly you've never tried it. You do recognize you get no body language at all with current video chats right? One of the many reasons I think current teleconferencing is terrible. Like you just get a head 95% of the time.
Re:Zuckerberg's leaked email on VR strategy (2015) by insane_dreamer on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:33PM (#33541859)
VR in the 90s sucked pretty hard