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Re:Productivity has fallen, and experts are puzzled. I’m not... by yrgulation on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:30PM (#33469422)
Its not i that needs to reason why as of 2022 remote work should be a right and not perk handed out by benevolent employers. It is you who should reason as to why we need to sit in offices for hours a day given all the modern tech and communication skills.
Re:Productivity has fallen, and experts are puzzled. I’m not... by taeric on Friday November 04, 2022 @12:52PM (#33469869)
But that isn't the argument/landscape. For one, I'm not arguing that offices are superior. I just can't in good faith blanket claim that remote is better. My gut is each is a tradeoff.

My main qualm in this is I have seen countless times folks have "obvious and well reasoned arguments" on why the companies that are succeeding are doing things wrong. I am not so naive as to fully expect a superior work environment would naturally rise to success, but I do question why successful remote jobs are typically not the norm, if that is such a better way.

Re:Productivity has fallen, and experts are puzzled. I’m not... by yrgulation on Friday November 04, 2022 @01:33PM (#33470610)
I think we can agree that there is a tradeoff. Also i dont expect or demand that everyone works from home.

Having said that, most arguments against remote work on hn are usually wrong solutions to legitimate problems.

These answers are usually centred around people’s need to socialise, housing issues, communication issues and supervision. All of these have alternative solutions that the onsite crowd doesn't want to explore.

But even so, everyone is entitled to an opinion. We should also be entitled to a preference. But the onsite crowd usually wants everyone else to be onsite (otherwise whom are they going to socialise with or who are they going to sit with in front of a whiteboard?). Basically they want to remote crowd to fill in their voids and gaps.

I have no issue with people wanting to be on site. I want their wish be granted. But they should have no right in dictating where and how i should do my work.

Also a company is successful due to various factors none of which seem to be working onsite or remote for that matter. Just because we do things a certain way it doesnt mean thats the right way or the only way. Nor does it mean something is not the norm due to not being equally good or better. Plenty of things we do as a society can be improved, and one of them is that due to modern technologies we can give people the option to chose where to work from. Now it can become the norm due to a convergence of multiple factors.

Re:Productivity has fallen, and experts are puzzled. I’m not... by taeric on Friday November 04, 2022 @02:00PM (#33471143)
I'm not sure what your argument is, though? :(

You have the claim that remote work is more productive and happier. You more than heavily imply that this is a universal truth for everyone. What is your actual evidence to that claim? I can easily accept "I like remote work more." I have a hard time thinking that generalizes in any meaningful way.

Note that I don't know that there is a solid claim that "getting people together" is amazing. It does at least have some appeal to the social of the working side. If folks are building things together, it is not hard to see there may be advantage to them being there together to do so.

Easier to see with some jobs. For easy example, why insist that all members of a sports team relocate to the home town for that team? At face value, you could "trust" them to just all show up on gameday ready for the game. I don't think anyone would argue for that, though.

Re:Productivity has fallen, and experts are puzzled. I’m not... by yrgulation on Friday November 04, 2022 @03:22PM (#33472324)
My bad, i assumed you were familiar with the pros and cons of each side as this debate has been going on for a while on HN. The fault is mine as i confuse HN with a hive mind where all ideas are assimilated and disseminated by a collective consciousness rather than individuals. One for another time.

My arguments in favour of remote work, for industries and domains where this is possible (not saying all tech domains can do it) range from social, environmental, housing, mental health, financial, productivity and freedom issues to personal preference and employer needs.

Environment: not having millions of people into cars, or public transport, saves enormous amounts of co2. Certainly heating homes scattered around the place can negate some of the benefits, but no one lets their home freeze while at work, so some energy will be used anyway. For instance my home benefits from digital thermostats on each radiator, so that during work hours the temperature is lower in most rooms, while kept comfortable in my office room, all according to a preconfigured schedule. My rig generates heat as well so the boiler doesnt always need to run. My window is facing the sun so when its sunny i still save some energy in cold winters. Others can explore similar setups.

Housing: people tend to congregate where there are jobs, resources, shops or social events. As a result prices go up or sometimes housing is simply not available. Where housing is available then space will be small, uncomfortable, or unhealthy (think of concrete jungles). Working remote means you can go anywhere where housing is affordable. Doesn't have to mean houses it can also mean spacious flats surrounded by plenty of parks and clean air. It also means we are able to build responsibly because either more land is available or we are able to integrate better with nature since there is no pressure to maximise the use of every available inch. Also we dont need to build ever wider roads since we dont need to use them as often. Shops can be nearby as do other amenities.

Social: By being able to choose where you live means you are also able to choose the kind of people you want to live with and the kind of social life you want to have. Some wish to socialise at work, and build feeble relationships with people that once they left the company can no longer meet. This damages the whole fabric of our society because such relationships are superficial in most cases. You no longer know your neighbour and you can no longer build long lasting relationships. No wonder its so easy to polarise society since the only contact with it is via social networking platforms. The republican or democrat, tory or labour nextdoor might sound like a dick on facebook but might be a nice person that does nice bbqs in real life. Seeing eye to eye means you can find common ground or show empathy.

Mental health: for some, not being able to sleep well due to the constant need to commute (related to housing) is very stressful. So is the constant noise of open space offices or the petty office political games that some like to play. Office politics wont necessarily go away due to remote work but it will become more difficult to play such games as there is less excuse to engage in trivial chat. Some find it difficult to live in crowded cities, while others need proper time for themselves to unwind.

Freedom: Being able to express your individuality more than just a few sticky notes and fake plants is a matter of freedom. I want to be free to build my work environment whichever way i want to. I want star wars wallpapers, custom lighting, background quiet music, a chair of my choice, and so on. That helps increase my productivity as well. But most important is being able to freely chose where i want to live so that i can address my housing and social needs or simply because i want to be free to live among trees in a forest. Code by day chop wood by night. My choice.

Also, employers shouldnt decide where you live. They own your time and skill for the amount they pay and contract you signed but not you. Mandatory onsite means they control a lot of you for which they havent paid. And considering the tech to facilitate such freedoms is available i dont see why its up to them to decide wether we want to use it or not.

Also people farming is in my view is a major issue in tech and manufacturing. Tech workers being farmed and milked of their intelligence is counter intuitive considering we mostly work on products that connect remote people while we ourselves cant benefit form it. A paradox. We need to be onsite while our users must be remote. Its like instead of using hn we should fly over to somewhere and talk in person.

Financial: why do i need to spend money out of my own pocket commuting? That is company time. Also why wouldnt i spend that money on better housing, better home made food, better anything really as it means extra money that i can spend on myself instead of train journeys or a car.

Productivity. Cattle is known to yield more milk if treated with music and green pastures. I dont see why a person that is able to afford better housing, socialise more, have more disposable income and working in a personalised environment wouldn't be more productive. Productivity is not just about supervision and processes. Processes can be followed remotely. Certainly there is nuance here, as some are genuinely more productive on site. Those who have explored all options, made a conscious decision that on site is better, then well good for them, they know what's best. But not even giving proper remote work a chance is in my view a mistake. If your reason is that you need to socialise then by all means move to an area with likeminded people and socialise all day after work. You are not getting paid to sit and chat and i am not there for it either.

Anyway writing this in a rush as i need to meet my social circle as i live in their proximity because remote work allowed for that. I’ll grab a beer and enjoy the privilege of actual friends, decent housing and a fulfilling professional life.