News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:STFU About What Women Want by einhverfr on Sunday December 11, 2011 @11:51PM (#3342319)
I do work in an area where women are extremely underrepresented--- open source software development. By some estimates, 1.5% of open source software developers are women (in contrast nearly 1/3rd of software developers with jobs are women).

I have noticed a few things. The first is that women tend to report being hit on fairly frequently just because the gender ratios are skewed. This isn't the end of the world and workplace/professional society romances and sexual encounters are are not that uncommon so it's going to happen unless we decide sex isn't part of the human condition (which isn't going to work).

The second is that the single most consistent annoyance mentioned to me is everyone asking "how do we get more women involved in open source?" This drives women away.

The third is hard to quantify but my sense is that of the women who come to open source, the vast majority come to it through employment. They have a job, and this is a means to get that job done. You see a lot more men who are independent consultants and hobbyists, and these make up the bulk of most projects. I would say the ratio of hobbyists/consultants of men to women in open source is probably 100:1.

If men get a job in open source it is more often through open source work, in other words participation is usually a career investment while for women it is more often something to do for a job.

There are exceptions of course. And one shouldn't underestimate their importance--- my grandmother was programming computers in Fortran, as she was an astrophysics professor. However at some point I think it is important to realize that asking the question, "how do we get more women involved" misses the point, and in fact drives women away. It's a counterproductive strategy. Simply saying "you are welcome at the table" is IMO a far more helpful way to proceed.

Re:STFU About What Women Want by jweant on Monday December 12, 2011 @09:30AM (#3343599)
Saying "You are welcome at the table" isn't enough. Your actions need to back up those words.
Re:STFU About What Women Want by hendrix on Monday December 12, 2011 @12:09AM (#3342374)
This. "How do we get more women in OSS?" is the same as saying "How do we get more male nurses"? If men want to become nurses, then they will become nurses, if women want to become open source software developers they will become OSS developers.
Re:STFU About What Women Want by Anechoic on Monday December 12, 2011 @12:13AM (#3342385)
> If men want to become nurses, then they will become nurses, if women want to become open source software developers they will become OSS developers.

That's true only if there are no institutional or cultural barriers. From reading the experience of women who are interested in OSS or men who are interested in becoming nurses, that does not seem to be the case.

Re:STFU About What Women Want by einhverfr on Monday December 12, 2011 @12:20AM (#3342407)
I'd agree with this.

The only exception really is to look at institutional (not cultural) barriers IMO. "Are we doing something that keeps people from being willing to have a seat at the table?"

Cultural barriers are beyond our immediate control where they extend beyond an immediate institution. If nursing is seen as unmanly, then there's not a lot one can do about that. And very often well-meaning attempts to "fix" cultural problems ends up re-inforcing them. Culture is a very resilient, homeostatic thing, and indeed, the idea that "we know what's better for women than they do" is pretty obviously sexist, but it is the same thing that comes up when saying "how do we get more women involved in X."

In general the only culture you can change is that of your own institutions, including your business and your family. That's it.

Edit: Downvotes are a bit amusing. Guess someone finds the idea challenging?

Re:STFU About What Women Want by davedx on Monday December 12, 2011 @03:37AM (#3342845)
Because you're talking rubbish.

Are you an anthropologist, to be able to say how resilient culture is to change? Can you produce some studies to back up this claim?

How do you explain the anti-slaving and civil rights movements? They didn't take 1000's of years, yet the idea black people were inferior was pretty deeply ingrained in the white culture's psyche.

Saying "we can't change the bad things in our culture" is self-defeating and destructive.

Re:STFU About What Women Want by wpietri on Monday December 12, 2011 @03:32AM (#3342837)
Or fatuous. You've made a lot of sweeping assertions about what can be done about culture with no evidence and no obvious expertise.

You could be right, of course, but a lot of the weaker responses to feminism have the same basic "no point in trying, ladies" conclusion that you do, and turn out to be suspiciously convenient for the speaker. So anybody with much history in this is not going to have time for resistance-is-futile comments whose supporting evidence is, "Gosh, that looks hard to me."

That goes double for startup people. It's par for the course that half of everybody tells you your idea is wrong, unworkable, impossible, foolish, or dangerous, and that you shouldn't even try. You quickly learn not to listen to those people except to see (so rarely, alas) if they have some novel point.

Re:STFU About What Women Want by Mz on Monday December 12, 2011 @03:38AM (#3342847)
Cultural barriers are beyond our immediate control where they extend beyond an immediate institution. If nursing is seen as unmanly, then there's not a lot one can do about that.

Just because it's not your forte does not mean it cannot be done. There are people who are quite skilled at "hacking" culture. Also, culture is not that homeostatic. One of the things about gradual change is that it goes unnoticed so that people take it for granted that "this is how it has always been" when, in fact, that isn't true. Culture evolves over time. The trick is to help it evolve more in step with the times instead of having a huge lag. It's often the degree of lag-time that creates huge friction and pain.

Re:STFU About What Women Want by lauraglu on Monday December 12, 2011 @11:28PM (#3346292)
From my understanding male nurses not only get paid more, but have access to more options/promotions because they are male. So really, it's the opposite of women's experiences in STEM (http://rachelappel.com/stats-data-and-answers-as-to-why-ther...).